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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "The subtile approach..." The subtile approach... (5) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Sat 7 Jan 06, 3:20 AM Hekoron DE, 6 yrs Hello there... I just joined this community and send everybody my dearest greetings. Since I am new here, you will most certainly not be surprised to read that I have a question... For nearly fifteen years now I live in a vanilla relationship - the usual stuff: Loving wife; cute, ten year old daughter; house; you get the picture. I am in the happy position to say that my wife is very open to experimenting regarding to sexual activities, and we did that a lot. Over the years my fondness of having some kind of control over her by bondage finally led to some tests about a master/slave relationship some months ago. I must admit that we started out the wrong way, me writing up a lot of rules and she almost panicking. I know how stupid I was to confront her with such a massive thing instead of patiently guiding her into it. Still she was willing to try it out (yeah, I guess she really loves me), but it wasnīt working for long, as is to be expected, of course. She didnīt like having to follow the rules, dress up how I wanted, being ordered around, trying out positions I wanted her to assume, you get it. It was all way too much. Interestingly, though, she seemed to get something out of it, though neither of us knows what it was. But we gave it up very quickly, and since then, the whole topic is rather difficult. We nearly never do bondage sessions since then, but it wasnīt happening too often before that either. Although she is getting very hot from bondage sometimes, she doesnīt welcome sessions too much or often. Most of the time itīs me who has to ask for it, and even if she agrees, itīs not too enjoyable for her. She goes through it, orgasms like she is fulfilling some kind of duty, and is done with it. But if she suggests a session _herself_, she goes through the roof, getting hotter than ever, and is cumming like itīs the last time. So I conclude she IS turned on by the concept of giving up control voluntarily, but she does it very, very seldom (I have no idea why), and I am very frustrated about that, because it gives me (and her) such a kick that I would prefer to do it much more often and extended into some kind of D/s thing... I still have hope, but donīt know how to go from here. I am currently trying to achive progress by rewarding her somehow everytime she does something more reflective of a submissive nature and so get her slowly into the mindset, but it IS painstakingly slow. Of course I love her dearly and would never hurt her, but right now, I could get some hints how to fasten the process without her getting defensive again. ANY helpful commentary, be it from masters or slaves, would be helpful. I have started to read a lot, digging through the B.E.S.T. website, starting to read the Control Book, and so on, but they all seem to be of use for a VERY consensual sub/slave only. But how do I get a person into the game when she is kind of turned off of the concept every time I mention it, but gets herself such a kick when it comes from her? She IS into it, I feel it, but how can I make a subtile approach, without getting her off the "hook"? I know how silly this all must sound, but please, help us out. Edited Sat 7 Jan 06, 3:50 AM by Hekoron 7 Jan 06, 6:36 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs Hekoron wrote: But if she suggests a session _herself_, she goes through the roof, getting hotter than ever, and is cumming like itīs the last time. So I conclude she IS turned on by the concept of giving up control voluntarily, but she does it very, very seldom (I have no idea why), and I am very frustrated about that, because it gives me (and her) such a kick that I would prefer to do it much more often and extended into some kind of D/s thing... You've answered your own question, unfortunately. Your wife gets into the idea of temporarily pretending to give up control, because she still really has control - she asked for it, and she can stop it whenever she wants. She doesn't want it to be real or full-time. For her, it's a sexual fetish, not a lifestyle. And while that may be inconvenient to your goals, there's actually nothing wrong with that. Most people are on the side of it being a sex thing, not something that they want all the time. Just because she gets turned on by a fantasy during sex does not mean that she wants to give up power over the breakfast table....and, frankly, it's wrong of you to try to push where she doesn't want to go. If you keep that up, you will probably lose her, unless she is so codependent that she will eventually go along with it unhappily anyway and just be miserable, and that's not what you want. I understand because at one point my wife was sexually hot for bondage and play-submission and all that as well, and we foolishly tried to make it a full-time thing. It didn't work, and it created a huge problem that took months to work through. We both felt betrayed, in different ways. I had to accept the fact that for her, it was a fun sex game (and now that her libido has declined, she's not even really interested in that any more) and for me, it was more than a game. We resolved it by my agreeing to keep our relationship entirely egalitarian, and I got myself a secondary lover who is a natural slave. In other words, I outsourced the D/s. Obviously, if you two are sworn to monogamy and polyamory is out of the question, you've got a problem. But you might be surprised... if your wife realizes that this is important to you, and that she really doesn't want to give it, she may be glad to have someone else relieve her of it. But you'll have to very careful...first, not to make her feel bad that she is not cut out to give this to you, and second, if you get a slave, not to fall so madly in love with the dynamic that you forget to pay the proper attention to your wife. Those are the two dangers I've stumbled over as well. It's hard, I know, to know that you have this deep need inside you to take part in a D/s relationship, and your partner doesn't...but that's life. Think of it in the same way if you suddenly came down with bisexual tendencies and your wife was less than thrilled about a request to strap on a rubber cock for you. Outsourcing is best in these situations. Either that, or divorce, but I would not throw away a loving marriage over this one need. In the meantime, by "rewarding" her for submissive behavior, what you're actually telling her subtly is that her normal and preferred way of being is not good enough. That's not a good thing. -Raven Kaldera, who has been through enough bottoms for whom it was only a fetish thing to know better than to try and make them any different.... 7 Jan 06, 9:37 AM babalon US, 6 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: Hekoron wrote: But if she suggests a session _herself_, she goes through the roof, getting hotter than ever, and is cumming like itïŋ―s the last time. So I conclude she IS turned on by the concept of giving up control voluntarily, but she does it very, very seldom (I have no idea why), and I am very frustrated about that, because it gives me (and her) such a kick that I would prefer to do it much more often and extended into some kind of D/s thing... You've answered your own question, unfortunately. Your wife gets into the idea of temporarily pretending to give up control, because she still really has control - she asked for it, and she can stop it whenever she wants. She doesn't want it to be real or full-time. For her, it's a sexual fetish, not a lifestyle. And while that may be inconvenient to your goals, there's actually nothing wrong with that. Most people are on the side of it being a sex thing, not something that they want all the time. Just because she gets turned on by a fantasy during sex does not mean that she wants to give up power over the breakfast table....and, frankly, it's wrong of you to try to push where she doesn't want to go. If you keep that up, you will probably lose her, unless she is so codependent that she will eventually go along with it unhappily anyway and just be miserable, and that's not what you want. I find it interesting that there are two posts on pretty much the same topic (how to get my spouse more into it) from both sides of the coin as it were. I realized that it could be interesting to see what my response is like to this person vs my response to the other. (Except that your response was really excellent, so there's not much else to say, imho.) And I guess I would focus in both cases on communicating with the spouse, and trying to find a common ground that is okay for both. It kindof reminds me of the Woody Allen movie though, where him and his girlfriend are simultaneously talking to shrinks who ask: So how often do you have sex? one answers: Hardly ever! Only about once a week! the other answers: All the time! Every week! Differences in needs and perspectives can be very difficult in relationships. The only way to overcome it, if it *can* be overcome, is through communication and exploration. 7 Jan 06, 9:51 AM Hekoron DE, 6 yrs Wow - what can I say? Thank you for this very honest and very reasonable answer, Raven. The more I read through it, the more you seemed to hit the point. Of course I would do nothing to hurt her, and if things are as you say, it would be wrong to try changing her, of course. I feel rather stupid not coming to the very same conclusion first, but thinking it through, I guess itīs the nail on the coffin where my D/s fantasies are going to be buried. At least regarding to her. I guess thatīs the reason why I knew my wifeīs position instinctively already but didnīt want to admit that. The outsourcing you mention is not totally out of question, but, as you both say, it would require a lot of very carefully managed conversations. For now, thank you all. If someone else has something to add, please go on. 8 Jan 06, 9:24 AM Michael_X UK, 6 yrs Hekoron wrote: I guess itīs the nail on the coffin where my D/s fantasies are going to be buried. <snip> If someone else has something to add, please go on. First a disclaimer. Both Babalon and Raven know far more about M/s and SM than I do. Further, as mentioned elsewhere, my relationship is D/s. Finally I make no claim to original thought, those who know me elsewhere can probably spot some of where I get my inspiration from even though I'll spare you the bibliography. What impresses me about your post is how often you say "we" and "us". That says a lot about you, your wife, and your marriage. Fantasies are great. Reality is great. Transforming fantasy, wish, desire, dreams into reality is possible but hard slow work. Don't dream it, be it. There is no easy way but nor is there only one way. You and your wife tried the jump in the deep end way to learn to swim. It didn't work. It left your wife with a fear of water and swimming. Probably you too. Neither you, your wife, nor your relationship drowned. Between you both you got all three safely back to shore. Yet she still sometimes chooses to go back to the water when she has the safety float of doing it when and as she feels able and desires it. Even though you don't know what it is you both got something out of it. Another way to learn to swim is to start in the shallow end. To play in the water and have fun. To build confidence in the water. To overcome fear. There is nothing wrong with staying in your depth and using floatation aids at this point. If you rush things it becomes one step forward two steps back. If you take it slowly, doing only a little and often, you make progress. If someone has had a near drowning experience it may be that all you can get them to do at first is sit with you in the car at the local pool and do relaxation exercises. Months later they may be willing to sit at the poolside for a short while never yet having got wet. It may take many months, even longer, before they are in the water and doing those first hesitant strokes. You can't do it by pushing, though at some points adding your strength to theirs is needed. There is a lot of bad, misleading, wrong and harmfull advice around about M/s and D/s relationships, especially on the internet. So it is not much different to the situation concerning vanilla relationships. Heck, for all I know, you may be reading some right now. You gave far too little information for anything more than my sharing the thoughts it provoked in me. You would be a fool to simply take those into your relationship or decision making and act upon them. I'm going to suggest something as a starting point but then you both need to make up your own homework. Consider that dominance and submission can exist without SM. Try learning something about what dominance and submission are in a non BDSM sense. It is all around you. These are personality traits, interpersonal behaviours and emotions. Psychology texts, books on animal behaviour, books about leadership, even dictionaries are a starting point. Come up with some non BDSM definitions and understandings of these things. If you keep doing the same thing in the same way you will keep getting the same results. If you don't like the results you are getting when you play look at the way you do things. Develop feedback loops of communication about what does and doesn't work. Do the work, have fun, Michael 8 Jan 06, 10:49 AM Hekoron DE, 6 yrs Your advices certainly are of the more helpful kind than other stuff Iīve read somewhere else. I thank your for your help, and let me tell you that I talked to my wife yesterday. And we talked and we talked and we talked... Things are developing. As you say, slowly, yes, but carefully and safe as well. I wouldnīt rule anything out for now, but one thing is sure: My wife still digs this stuff... but as Raven indicated, she loves to control when to give up control... there may be a way to live with that... Iīll certainly tell you more as progresses are made. For now, my time is short. Just thank you to all you people again for your very great answers! Greetings, Ralph Edited 8 Jan 06, 10:50 AM by Hekoron