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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Dominant Slaves" 1 2 Dominant Slaves (18) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Mon 23 Jan 12, 7:59 PM Mistress_Rebekah CA, 7 mths Y! I was reading an article (see here: http://www.teramis.com/kink/nature_of_opr.htm) which was discussing M/s relationships when I came across the following statement: "Slaves are often dominant in their own right; it takes a certain amount of self-directed take-charge-ness in order to effectively serve a demanding Owner." So... for the slaves... would you typically describe yourselves as dominant and/or having dominant traits? Do you consider effectively serving your Owner/Master/Mistress to be something that requires "self-directed take-charge-ness"? Also, another statement that struck me as interesting was: “a slave has no rights” is equivalent to saying, “the slave must at all times be obedient, even if the Master's orders oppose something the slave thinks s/he is entitled to”. Do any of the slaves here have rights or believe they have entitlements? If so, what are they? Has this sort of conversation ever cropped up (i.e. have any slaves ever tried to defy their Owner/Master/Mistress using the "I have rights" argument)? And, for anyone who wishes to comment, what do you think of the statement: "Many, many people are involved in D/s of various degrees of control, using the terms “Master”, “Mistress” and “slave” for the erotic charge and symbolic meaning of it. Relatively few people engage in an M/s relationship in its original and traditional sense of owning obedient human property, using the words “Master” and “slave” in their literal sense... A lot of people like to use the word “slave” because it has erotic juice, and that is where a lot of confusion comes in: as if there were different styles of “Master/slave” relationships. In my analysis, there are no different styles of M/s relationships if we are talking about the essential Owner/property agreement... I also recognize that, as happens with language, the terms slave and M/s have been absorbed wholesale into the broader kink community and are often used with little or no understanding of or regard for the current or older meanings of those words. I think this happens from ignorance" The "erotic juice" part struck me as... well, I'll leave other's to comment on that one I'm sure some of or all of these topics have been discussed at some point... I just thought I'd share this article and see if anyone had similar reactions to it as me. Cheers, M. Rebekah 23 Jan 12, 9:03 PM Hawklord UK, 6 yrs Mistress_Rebekah wrote: Dominant Slaves I was reading an article (see here: http://www.teramis.com/kink/nature_of_opr.htm) which was discussing M/s relationships when I came across the following statement: "Slaves are often dominant in their own right; it takes a certain amount of self-directed take-charge-ness in order to effectively serve a demanding Owner." That is an excellent article, thanks for it. But actually I suspect she is using the wrong word. The word I would have used is independent. Strength is another word that comes to mind. My slaves are able to make independent decisions requiring strength, and those decisions are based on what they think I would do, or based on what they think will please me. I don't think slaves are typically dominant although there can be an element of that in some slaves, probably my no.2. And as for the erotic juice she is totally correct. So many Masters (but less so Mistresses I think) expect a roller coaster of sex. The reality is different. The reality is responsibility, discipline, correction, guidance, emotions, problems, modus vivendi. Sic volo. sic jubeo. stat pro ratione voluntas 23 Jan 12, 11:11 PM Mistress_Rebekah CA, 7 mths Y! Hawklord wrote: That is an excellent article, thanks for it. But actually I suspect she is using the wrong word. The word I would have used is independent. Strength is another word that comes to mind. My slaves are able to make independent decisions requiring strength, and those decisions are based on what they think I would do, or based on what they think will please me. I don't think slaves are typically dominant although there can be an element of that in some slaves, probably my no.2. And as for the erotic juice she is totally correct. So many Masters (but less so Mistresses I think) expect a roller coaster of sex. The reality is different. The reality is responsibility, discipline, correction, guidance, emotions, problems, modus vivendi. No problem... glad you enjoyed it. I think you're correct when you use the term strong. One of the points in the article is that slaves are not "doormats", which I agree with... I don't want my sub to be someone I can walk all over, but rather, someone who wants and/or needs to obey my instruction... for whatever reason... I know my sub does not want to be a doormat, but if I was wearing knee-high leather stiletto boots, he probably wouldn't complain... lol I guess I just don't get the "erotic juice" part (but you make the point that this might be less evident in Mistresses, which I would personally agree with). This lifestyle isn't about sex and sexuality with me... yes, my sub and I partake in physical pleasures... but the whips and chains and all of those toys aren't what turn me on... telling my sub what or how to do it doesn't turn me on either... only the fact that he wants to please (and being good at it doesn't hurt either, lol) is what turns me on... but I don't call myself a Mistress to get my "juices" flowing. I think a lot of people out there like the kink of the lifestyle but aren't interested in, or couldn't deal with, the rest of it... all of the stuff you mention... emotion, discipline, etc. M. Rebekah 23 Jan 12, 11:44 PM 766-003-205 US(CA), 8 mths Y! Mistress_Rebekah wrote: Dominant Slaves I was reading an article (see here: http://www.teramis.com/kink/nature_of_opr.htm) which was discussing M/s relationships when I came across the following statement: "Slaves are often dominant in their own right; it takes a certain amount of self-directed take-charge-ness in order to effectively serve a demanding Owner." 1)))So... for the slaves... would you typically describe yourselves as dominant and/or having dominant traits? Do you consider effectively serving your Owner/Master/Mistress to be something that requires "self-directed take-charge-ness"? 2)))Also, another statement that struck me as interesting was: “a slave has no rights” is equivalent to saying, “the slave must at all times be obedient, even if the Master's orders oppose something the slave thinks s/he is entitled to”. Do any of the slaves here have rights or believe they have entitlements? If so, what are they? Has this sort of conversation ever cropped up (i.e. have any slaves ever tried to defy their Owner/Master/Mistress using the "I have rights" argument)? 3)))And, for anyone who wishes to comment, what do you think of the statement: "Many, many people are involved in D/s of various degrees of control, using the terms “Master”, “Mistress” and “slave” for the erotic charge and symbolic meaning of it. Relatively few people engage in an M/s relationship in its original and traditional sense of owning obedient human property, using the words “Master” and “slave” in their literal sense... A lot of people like to use the word “slave” because it has erotic juice, and that is where a lot of confusion comes in: as if there were different styles of “Master/slave” relationships. In my analysis, there are no different styles of M/s relationships if we are talking about the essential Owner/property agreement... I also recognize that, as happens with language, the terms slave and M/s have been absorbed wholesale into the broader kink community and are often used with little or no understanding of or regard for the current or older meanings of those words. I think this happens from ignorance" The "erotic juice" part struck me as... well, I'll leave other's to comment on that one I'm sure some of or all of these topics have been discussed at some point... I just thought I'd share this article and see if anyone had similar reactions to it as me. Cheers, M. Rebekah 1) i have learned over time, dominant abilities. i would not call them traits. i methodically and deliberately studied those bhaviors in others and learned to use them. i am no longer a pushover for just anyone. i think the concept of anticipatory service might be a least in part what they are referring to. Knowing He likes pickled herring, i buy it when we are out of it. i don't need to be told. He hates paying the bills, i do it, and therefore know more about the money than He does and He likes it that way, though He has final say in purchases outside of regular groceries etc. 2) my entitlements are Life, safety, reasonably health promoting lifestyle, honesty in relationship. Basically take care of the property. i have privileges such as internet, laptops, TV, hobbies etc. They are revocable. i don't expect them to be revoked except if He decided to initiate a punishment dynamic, or decided to scrap the internet etc. He likes a lot of alone time, and it does keep me entertained when there is little else to do. Some Masters want to enforce their religious beliefs on slaves and if the slave believes differently, all they will accomplish is a facade of belief.i think it is better not to go there, though many slaves attend the church, mosque, temple or ashram, meetings but are not expected to believe, (true belief can't be forced anyway. One can fool oneself or pretend, but real belief is not like a shirt that can be put on an viola there it is)A Master IMO should prefer honesty and change that is going to be real and permanent and not be tossed the minute the Master is gone. 3) Erotic- According to those i know in their late 60's-late 70's (69-78yrs olds) who lived within the "lifestyle" for decades- they say it most certainly IS erotic, but ALSO contains other aspects. Even a chastity slave has eros in it. A service slave who is NOT involved with sex with their Master recently said the housework is not a turn on, but the threat of punishment for making mistakes IS THE turn on. They don't like the pain, but the threat. A LOT of the emotional charge boils down to eroticism even if the person is too inhibited, physically unable or neurotic to engage in sex with their partner. Although pleasing Him or Her is often sited as often a motivation for enslavement, pleasing is common in vanilla relationships as well with one or both partners thinking of the other first most or all of the time. Often buying things they think will please the other, fixing favorite foods, going to a movie, or a special house cleaning since that is a mundane daily chore for whoever does it and would happen M/s or not. So to me i wouldn't see it as a "proof" of enslavement. i actually ran some questions on a website and also via PM elsewhere, with the results: Masters DO seem to be interested in having more sex with their slaves where Mistresses AND their slaves seem more interested in chastity and teasing. Chastity and "running hot" is very attractive and i actually ran a questionnaire about Masters (and i also got positive responses from Mistresses too) that they don't like waiting for sex at all. They want it when they want it. NOW. Not that they don't enjoy a little delay at times, but they like to KNOW it will come when they say so. Not that they are having sex all the time, but want the control to say when. Not so much the slave. We like them to say when. It triggers the submission need and fulfills the desire to serve. The Mistresses however often had someone other than the slave for the actual sex act (including themselves- masturbation). 100% of all the slaves said they liked "running hot" teased, titillated, orgasm control and/or denial for a while, sometimes a long while. There is a certain euphoria that seems to go along with running hot. This is not th whole of the relationship- it is an aspect of it. There are some who ONLY submit/Dominate in the bedroom, and dominate/submit or are egalitarian everywhere else. Usually egalitarian from the ones i've talked to. (except the bedroom) There is also an excitement akin to subspace in submitting. Easily converted to hot BTW-if submission is exciting to "you". i do think there are sexual inhibitions that make it hard for people to accept there is eroticism, and also because eroticism is so powerful it is easy to overlook the other's aspects and neglect them, or minimize them. i don't think any of it occurs alone but a mix of all. i do think some people assume others are confused about it when they have dynamics different than their own. There are sex slaves, blank slate slaves, service slaves and any combination of the above. IT may be bedroom only, outside the bedroom only or everywhere-which is 24/7 to me. There are also mildly submissive people who think hanging cuffs above the bed and making coffee in the morning makes them a slave "for a time." One slave announced she was taking the day off and she told her Master HE would be doing the chores the next day. He did BTW. Another wrote in wondering what to do about a Master who didn't complete the job list she made for Him while she was at work. She was mad because He only did most of them. i would say that would be the example of not understanding it. We see it as self transformation. A form of actualization that happens to include eros. We LOVE the sex around it. We also love the rest. Sex isn't always practical and if it ended there, it wouldn't be 24/7. We each expect to authenticize and are, discover things and do paradigm shifts. Eros is not excluded, a part of it but not the end or all of it. One thing to consider as well. Old eventually gives way to new. New often finds out the old knew something after all, but not everything. My mentor is old school and is 68. One thing that we often forget is that much of M/s is regionally driven by the local traditions which vary greatly. Some things evolved fairly commonly, but many did not, and are unique to the area and always has been. Who is going to claim THEIR region is more right than another? A lot of what we see IMO is evolution- changing times and technology like the internet creating new needs and changes that are essential. We aren't meeting in the dark of night, secretly creating scenes (they really WERE scenes) in the deep woods hoping to not get caught and meeting our Masters or slaves there over a period of years, finding them attractive and of like mind and moving in together. Many old timers will tell you the M/s (ALSO called themselves Owners and property) SHOULD be wearing their fetish wear at parties and "scenes" to identify who is who by sight and the slaves should never be sitting on the furniture, ever, and if told to do something for ANOTHER Masters by their Master- crawl to them, bow ask to serve them, relaying their Master's offer. The slave should be kicked or slapped if they err or fail protocol by ANY Master/Mistress. THAT'S a part of N. CA old times and how it was done. Personally-it appeals to me. IN S. Ca the slave drank their Masters urine EVERY morning- a cup not a sip, fresh, not chilled or mixed. (doesn't appeal to me) i really don't see many doing that and i don't know that it is necessary. IT is REGIONAL. One region's rule is another regions aversion. We are facing a "melting pot" of kink, of M/s; D/s (D/s is relatively new to "the scene" aka community. Some insist it doesn't exist) So we have communication changes requiring other changes, modifications of how "it's done". There are older people with valuable knowledge being ignored and to some extent will have to be as people have different challenges than previous generations. Sad to see information lost whether it is useful or not. Better ways ARE found. The idea to me is not to write something off unless it needs to be. OR write someone off because we don't "get it" as there are differences. i see many battles on FL between 24/7 and part time that seems to originate in "rightness" "realness" (each side thinking only they are correct rather than different perspectives from different needs) and not understanding the needs and perspectives of each MUST be different and we can agree to disagree but will never really agree. No need to fight or diminish the other. We have a changing world with regions meeting regions and people pulling from the regions that speak to them. OR "Eras" like 1800, 1950's etc that appeal to them. We should get along and stop judging. Just do what we do and trust others are too. Edited 24 Jan 12, 7:28 AM by 766-003-205 24 Jan 12, 3:25 AM slave_emma US(OK), 5 yrs Y! I wouldn't describe myself as dominant. I am rather submissive in nature. I would say that on a daily basis I am pretty much self-directed on what to do, not because I am dominant but because I know what my Master expects of me. He likes anticipatory service, so I seek to have things ready without him asking. Being able to effectively anticipate his needs and wants took time because I had to learn about him and his routines. Some areas were initially directed by him, but as time progressed I no longer needed his direction. For example, I don't need him to go through how he likes his eggs cooked. But when we first got together he did have to go through how he likes eggs cooked. I do think that going from directing the slave with certain tasks to not directing them takes time. I never looked at as a way of gaining dominance in the household. I looked at it as a way I was adding value and service to the household. Moving on, I have never pulled the “I have rights” card to get out of doing something for my Master. To me, that just does not sound like something that would regularly creep up in a healthy relationship. As far as a slave having rights, I would say a slave does have rights as a member of the human race. Just like a dog or cat has the right not to be abused or mistreated. If you look at historic accounts of slavery, in some cases slaves did have rights. For instance, during the imperial period in ancient Rome it was against the law to murder or mutilate a slave. However, earlier laws during the republican period stated a slave did not have any rights. I think whether or not a slave has rights depends on what idea of slavery one choose s to adopt. I do not think one is necessarily better than the other. They are just different. Lastly, I do not consider my enslavement to my Master to be erotic. It is part of my everyday life and I am not in a constant state of sexual arousal. His control goes beyond the bedroom. I do not think I would be truly happy with just a kink relationship. I would be missing the guidance from my Master, the fulfillment I get from serving him, and etc. I don't care of someone wants to play Master/slave in the bedroom because they think it is fun. It's not my place to judge their relationship or the labels they give their relationship. If I want to know if someone has a similar relationship dynamic to me, I listen to how they describe their relationship not how they label it. Best wishes, slave emma Master Howard's little girl 24 Jan 12, 7:38 AM 766-003-205 US(CA), 8 mths Y! FYI- the article didn't come up- i don't know if it is a server thing or regional. Says it is incorrect address. Edited 24 Jan 12, 7:40 AM by 766-003-205 24 Jan 12, 10:23 AM ushaben UK, 2 yrs like 'emma', my service to my Owner is not erotic; obeying Him, though, is an absolute necessity to me, as it gives my life purpose and meaning. Having said this, although, for example, ironing a shirt can be very tedious, ironing my Owner's shirt i cherish, as an act of devotion. 24 Jan 12, 1:42 PM SL_precious CA, 3 yrs 766-003-205 wrote: FYI- the article didn't come up- i don't know if it is a server thing or regional. Says it is incorrect address. if you remove the bracket at the end of the link it will work going to have a read and respond in a bit but right now i have some work to get done precious "Amazing what happens when we let go, surrender all and embrace the painful changes that are necessary to bring wholeness, and a brighter tomorrow." Suzanne Sondberg 24 Jan 12, 10:48 PM Mistress_Rebekah CA, 7 mths Y! 766-003-205 wrote: The Mistresses however often had someone other than the slave for the actual sex act (including themselves- masturbation). 100% of all the slaves said they liked "running hot" teased, titillated, orgasm control and/or denial for a while, sometimes a long while. There is a certain euphoria that seems to go along with running hot. This is not th whole of the relationship- it is an aspect of it. There are some who ONLY submit/Dominate in the bedroom, and dominate/submit or are egalitarian everywhere else. Usually egalitarian from the ones i've talked to. (except the bedroom) There is also an excitement akin to subspace in submitting. Easily converted to hot BTW-if submission is exciting to "you". i do think there are sexual inhibitions that make it hard for people to accept there is eroticism, and also because eroticism is so powerful it is easy to overlook the other's aspects and neglect them, or minimize them. i don't think any of it occurs alone but a mix of all. i do think some people assume others are confused about it when they have dynamics different than their own. There are sex slaves, blank slate slaves, service slaves and any combination of the above. IT may be bedroom only, outside the bedroom only or everywhere-which is 24/7 to me. There are also mildly submissive people who think hanging cuffs above the bed and making coffee in the morning makes them a slave "for a time." One slave announced she was taking the day off and she told her Master HE would be doing the chores the next day. He did BTW. Another wrote in wondering what to do about a Master who didn't complete the job list she made for Him while she was at work. She was mad because He only did most of them. i would say that would be the example of not understanding it. We see it as self transformation. A form of actualization that happens to include eros. We LOVE the sex around it. We also love the rest. Sex isn't always practical and if it ended there, it wouldn't be 24/7. We each expect to authenticize and are, discover things and do paradigm shifts. Eros is not excluded, a part of it but not the end or all of it. One thing to consider as well. Old eventually gives way to new. New often finds out the old knew something after all, but not everything. My mentor is old school and is 68. One thing that we often forget is that much of M/s is regionally driven by the local traditions which vary greatly. Some things evolved fairly commonly, but many did not, and are unique to the area and always has been. Who is going to claim THEIR region is more right than another? A lot of what we see IMO is evolution- changing times and technology like the internet creating new needs and changes that are essential. We aren't meeting in the dark of night, secretly creating scenes (they really WERE scenes) in the deep woods hoping to not get caught and meeting our Masters or slaves there over a period of years, finding them attractive and of like mind and moving in together. Many old timers will tell you the M/s (ALSO called themselves Owners and property) SHOULD be wearing their fetish wear at parties and "scenes" to identify who is who by sight and the slaves should never be sitting on the furniture, ever, and if told to do something for ANOTHER Masters by their Master- crawl to them, bow ask to serve them, relaying their Master's offer. The slave should be kicked or slapped if they err or fail protocol by ANY Master/Mistress. THAT'S a part of N. CA old times and how it was done. Personally-it appeals to me. IN S. Ca the slave drank their Masters urine EVERY morning- a cup not a sip, fresh, not chilled or mixed. (doesn't appeal to me) i really don't see many doing that and i don't know that it is necessary. IT is REGIONAL. One region's rule is another regions aversion. We are facing a "melting pot" of kink, of M/s; D/s (D/s is relatively new to "the scene" aka community. Some insist it doesn't exist) So we have communication changes requiring other changes, modifications of how "it's done". There are older people with valuable knowledge being ignored and to some extent will have to be as people have different challenges than previous generations. Sad to see information lost whether it is useful or not. Better ways ARE found. The idea to me is not to write something off unless it needs to be. OR write someone off because we don't "get it" as there are differences. i see many battles on FL between 24/7 and part time that seems to originate in "rightness" "realness" (each side thinking only they are correct rather than different perspectives from different needs) and not understanding the needs and perspectives of each MUST be different and we can agree to disagree but will never really agree. No need to fight or diminish the other. We have a changing world with regions meeting regions and people pulling from the regions that speak to them. OR "Eras" like 1800, 1950's etc that appeal to them. We should get along and stop judging. Just do what we do and trust others are too. Thank you for your reply. It was quite interesting. But I hope that you did not think I was judging anyone (your last few paragraphs are what made me wonder). I'm always just incredibly curious to know what others do... how they do it... not because I want to compare or tell them they're wrong, but just because I'm curious/interested. And, if I do happen to disagree with someone's statement, I can always agree to disagree... there is no point in pushing your opinion onto someone else as if yours is the one-and-only-bestest way ever!!! I hate that crap. Anyway, that said... it would be great to be able to learn from "old timers" some of their traditions and ways they did/do things... unfortunately, I have little-to-no access here to any "real life" old timers... With this being such a small, closed-minded community it would probably be detrimental for anyone here - more so in the older generations - to "come out" about who/what they are... I know that sounds like a terrible thing to say, but they would be so marginalized... imagine having what you consider to be life-long friends cast you aside... I've seen it happen here... it ain't pretty! I have to say that, for me, I disagree with the eroticism as part of this lifestyle. Eroticism can be found almost anywhere in anything if you're looking for it... but I'm not specifically seeking it. I don't claim to be a "Mistress" and try to perform/function as I think a Mistress should because it turns me on. I don't call my sub a sub because it turns me on. Some of the most mundane, vanilla things turn me on... and if I'm in the mood, perhaps a bit of withholding sex/teasing my sub turns me on... but it isn't this lifestyle that gets me going... This is a lifestyle I live because it's who I am and it feels right and I feel at peace and at ease knowing I can admit to what I am with the person I love. It would be horrible, for me, to be in any other type of relationship... I'm sure plenty of M/s couples are erotically charged for one another... but you find that in the vanilla world as well... I don't, personally, think the lifestyle we lead has anything to do with how I am sexually. Yes, I like to have sex when I feel like it... but, as a woman, even if I didn't live this lifestyle it'd be pretty easy to go get sex whenever I wanted it anyway... Mistress or not I just found the article, overall, to be interesting... it made me think about a few things. So thanks, to everyone, for sharing the way you think. M. Rebekah 25 Jan 12, 7:59 AM Prolixitys_Saphira US, 13 mths Dominant? Yes, very much so. I tend to take control of things, do them my way and if things don't get done my way, I get frustrated. How did I end up in the situation I'm in? I don't know; I can only hypothesize that there was chemistry between us and his will was stronger than mine so he was able to bend me to it. Nobody else has ever been able to. But our relationship is not typical, being that he's a switch in the bedroom and needs someone to play dominant every once in a while with him. It is my job to fill that role when he needs it. It is possible that he needed a sub with a more dominant personality to meet his needs. Owned, loved and protected by Prolixity. 26 Jan 12, 4:24 PM Ceilyn UK, 11 mths is that article anywhere else? I'm hitting a 404 on the links. Next page