The Top 100 BDSM / Fetish Books    [other banners]

	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Correlations between D/s and S&M" 1 2 Correlations between D/s and S&M (15) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Wed 26 Oct 11, 10:35 PM slaveboy_Alpha CA, 7 mths I will start off by saying I am sorry if this is a frequent topic, but if this discussion has been had in the past, I did not have the opportunity to participate in it, therefore my interest in starting it anew. Statement: It is frequently observed that some D/s relationships also include some component of sadomasochism. (I am referring specifically to the physical type here, please understand this) Statement 2: It is frequently observed that some sadomasochist relationships are completely devoid of any D/s mechanisms. Statement 3: It is also frequently observed that some D/s relationships are completely devoid of any sadomasochist component. Although as stated in statement 2 & 3, D/s and S&M can an often are mutually exclusive, in the instances that they DO overlap as in statement 1, I have only ever seen them overlap in the specific fashion that the sub is the masochist and the Dom is the sadist. Of course, I only have my personal experiences to base this on and I will not make blanket claims that this is how is always is. However, these personal observations bring me to wonder about certain things: Is the specific psychological makeup of a masochist necessarily more conductive to being submissive? Does anyone have personal experience to share that is contrary to mine? (Meaning has anyone ever encountered a dynamic where the roles were reversed, the D being maso and the sub being sado ) And when acknowledging the mechanics of switches involved in D/s relationships that also include S&M, has it been observed by anyone here that one would engage in Dominant behaviour in a *simultaneous* fashion as engaging in masochist activities or vice versa? (engaging simultaneously in submissive and sadistic behaviours) It seems to me that (perhaps barred some rare exceptions) the submissive mindset simply is not conductive to sadistic activity. Discuss. (And please remember that I have not formed judgment in any way, only stated what I have come to observe personally. I hope for an interesting conversation on the subject and pull out a trashcan cover to protect myself from tomatoes just in case :p ) In perfect love and perfect trust, Alpha. 26 Oct 11, 11:20 PM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs I am presently in a relationship that has no S&M component what-so-ever as I do not feel physical pain, or if I do, I can literally shut it off in seconds much like one does a light switch. As my former Master said, kinda pointless to whip you for my enjoyment if you are not even going to feel it. I am not masochist in the least, nor do I identify as a submissive personality (except by choice sexually). In our relationship I am the submissive and my Master is the dominant driving force. We do not switch roles. I do not think people are born (hardwired) inherently one way (submissive or dominant). There may be a predisposition towards one versus the other, but through conditioning and our environment we cultivate the predisposition or we can change that if we choose to (I am not saying it is easy, but it is doable). I believe being a switch is probably the "biological" norm in that we may have varying amounts of dominant and submissive traits. I realize the "born a slave/submissive" group are going to hate what I just said... but as humans, and all other living things for that matter, are programmed for survival. The "I am only submissive" is counter-intuitive to our survival instinct (the Darwinian debate of survival of the fittest whereby the biologically weak are culled from the evolutionary herd). We may have a preference in terms of our emotional comfort, but this does not mean we can't be dominant (or submissive) when required. I liken this to the mother bear who is generally passive in nature until you come between mother bear and her cubs. What I have learned about this lifestyle is that people can mentally convince themselves of anything if it rationalizes a choice they have made. I think the input of an evolutionary biologist on this topic would be useful for providing further insight. "We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us. The old skin must be shed before a new one can come." ~ Joseph Campbell 27 Oct 11, 2:48 AM 766-003-205 US(CA), 11 mths Y! i DO believe people are born submissive or dominant. i spent most of my life learning dominant behavior because i was raised to believe submissiveness was wrong, and i created a pretty good facsimile, but not the REAL me. i, as a part of that became asexual. They only thing that EVER turned me on was S&M and submissive fantasy. i actually even have explained HOW to acquire dominant behaviors that fool the best of them. It is a handy tool box item, but if not a true dominant-passionless. The problem is, there is a price to pay. Part of it is the weight of the world on your shoulders being someone else, it requires you to be out of touch with your REAL feelings, and for me, sex was nothing unless i got out of the role of dominant. FOr me,. it was totally a role. Being a submissive is not a role but who i am. i know a few masochists who are not submissive. They want to be tortured, whipped etc, but will not submit to anyone. If they do, it is a part of a deal to get erotic pain and they are role playing, bottoming. i know a sadistic Domme who is masochistic about once a year, and when she is MAJOR tit torture. They are black and blue, red with blood and bruising.Otherwise her sub gets CBT the rest of the time. i DO happen to be a masochist. When i was 11 i had my first conscious sexual desire. i immediately used warm/cold shower and bathtub water and a handful of necklace chains for pussy whipping. Never heard of it before, but i thought i'd invented it. i had no clue other people did anything like this-though as a child loved old pirate movies and identified with whoever was getting whipped and put in prisons and put on the rack. i'd still love a rack. i re-read the Classics Illustrated over and over about the Hunchback of Notre Dame getting the pillory, the old movie version of Man in the Iron Mask, and wanted to join a convent (though i wasn't a Catholic) because i heard they got whipped and lived severe lives of restriction and submission. This started when about 4 years old.i used to make my bed as tight as possible and climb inside and pretend i was in jail- every night i created elaborate play stories in bed. i loved listening to the Rawhide theme as a went to bed when it was on.(Had whip lash sounds in the music) My heart would race, and sometimes i would tremble and then be afraid my family might notice my odd reaction. THEY were of course hoping for the release of prisoners and their rescue- i WAS the prisoner and didn't care if i got rescued. Anyway- i get a sexual rush from pain, the Wartenburg pinwheel, the flogger (a leather point tip one, not deer or suede which is comfy and not erotic), the single tail whip which a blind sadist uses on me. Yes- that is edge play- a blind sadist. AWESOME with the single tail, clamps, irritants-gotta love that ginger and toothpaste, Tiger Balm. mmmmm When i get whipped i literally feel hotter and hotter a cunt rush with each hit. Really. THAT is a real masochist. There are many who are masochistic- they want to be tortured as punishment (i like that too, but again ultimately it is sexual, which HE benefits from the fallout LOL) as taking it for their Master or Mistress only, actually not liking the pain but trying to prove they are submitting entirely or because their Master/Mistress is a sadist and doing it as a submissive slave. A true masochist actually gets a sexual rush, not just subspace but a sexual rush as well. So i AM Born This Way, and have the submissive, bondage slut (i believe enslavement is an extension of bondage need for those of us who have the need so deeply) a masochist, a degradation lover, and exhibitionist. My profile on FL is much more extensive and explains more. i have many friends who also have this similar experience. One remembers from age 3. We just are. For some people, maybe not, but for us, absolutely. Being a submissive is not biologically weak or counter evolutionary but necessary for the dominant to exist as well. i know some people hate to think they may be "stuck" as submissive, want a back door out of it, i know i did, the backdoor doesn't work any better than pretending to not be gay. Now i am at peace with it, understand it much better and am finally free at last. Edited 27 Oct 11, 2:56 AM by 766-003-205 27 Oct 11, 3:09 AM 766-003-205 US(CA), 11 mths Y! Here is a link that is a paper about BDSM and anxiety. It's stand is that it is not the BDSM but the stigma that causes the anxiety AND mentions the the appearance of genetics to be a part of the tendency to be attracted to BDSM. http://www.silventarphotography.com/psych/articl... http://www.narth.com/docs/apareport1.html It also mentions the idea that environment etc may enter in as well. i think it is ultimately going to turn out to be primarily biological for full timers, lifers like me and a mix for those who are part timers, players. i was adopted BTW and my adoptive parents were as vanilla as the day is long. My mom was a working girl when she met my dad and they raissed me to be a feminist and i was my dad's oldest "son". Taught early to be a "tomboy" but it didn't remove my core. 27 Oct 11, 3:32 AM Pet_Girl US, 14 mths In my albeit limited experience, I've noticed that as well, that the dominant tends to be the sadistic one if there's some version of sadomasochism in a lifestyle relationship. In thinking about it logically, it seems that if one were to be predisposed to being a masochist, it would most likely be the submissive. That being said, our very own @Naughtyslave is a masochist with one of the most sadistic brains that I've ever had the pleasure of picking, so who knows lol. Edited 27 Oct 11, 4:04 AM by Pet_Girl 27 Oct 11, 5:30 AM 766-003-205 US(CA), 11 mths Y! Yes. Occasionally a sub or slave will be told to be a sadist to their Dom or Master and they worry the D/M-s won't work anymore. We all reassure them they are still an "s" and the D/M qon;t lose their power and it is still serving. Sadism exists in slaves and subs and masochism exists in Masters and Doms. 27 Oct 11, 3:16 PM slaveboy_Alpha CA, 7 mths @096 Oh, I had not thought of checking on Fetlife for a specific combo as such. I will look into these 19 people see if I cannot find one who might be inclined to discuss their point of view. 766-003-205 wrote: Yes. Occasionally a sub or slave will be told to be a sadist to their Dom or Master and they worry the D/M-s won't work anymore. We all reassure them they are still an "s" and the D/M qon;t lose their power and it is still serving. Sadism exists in slaves and subs and masochism exists in Masters and Doms. So you have seen it? How did that dynamic work? Did the Dom order the sub to hurt him/her? Was it just sadistic urges or did such subs actually get to act on it within a scene where they were still in the submissive position? And you say "we all reassure them" ...Who is this we? Do you know other people who have encountered this on multiple occasion? Is there a group specific to sadistic slaves and masochist masters somewhere? I have not found one on Fetlife, but I often miss a lot of things there :p In perfect love and perfect trust, Alpha. 27 Oct 11, 4:21 PM slaveboy_Alpha CA, 7 mths 766-003-205 wrote: i DO believe people are born submissive or dominant. i spent most of my life learning dominant behavior because i was raised to believe submissiveness was wrong, and i created a pretty good facsimile, but not the REAL me. i, as a part of that became asexual. They only thing that EVER turned me on was S&M and submissive fantasy. Although I suspect the "born submissive" is a comment to the previous post, the rest of this paragraph bares some similarities with my own experiences. After leaving the violent and abusive nest of my father, I felt a need to control things as a defense mechanism. It took me a while to understand that I was only repeating his pattern and denying myself what I truly wanted. 766-003-205 wrote: i know a few masochists who are not submissive. They want to be tortured, whipped etc, but will not submit to anyone. If they do, it is a part of a deal to get erotic pain and they are role playing, bottoming. I know quite a few of these too, hence "statement 2" in my original post. Even more so, I would say that, even though Madame has complete control over me in everyday life, in the specific moments when we engage in heavy S&M (that some might consider edge play) the M/s dynamic seems to fall a bit by the wayside as the intensity of the S&M rises. 766-003-205 wrote: i know a sadistic Domme who is masochistic about once a year, and when she is MAJOR tit torture. They are black and blue, red with blood and bruising.Otherwise her sub gets CBT the rest of the time. See this is what I wonder. This dom who is masochistic about once a year, when she gets her tit torture, does she get it AS A DOM? Or does she momentarily switch to a sub position for the duration of the play session? Or does she get it in a play session that becomes DEVOID of D/s mechanics, reverting to a strictly S&M setting? 766-003-205 wrote: Anyway- i get a sexual rush from pain, the Wartenburg pinwheel, the flogger (a leather point tip one, not deer or suede which is comfy and not erotic) I know what you mean. There is an old suede flogger in the play room that has been relegated to decoration years ago, lol. 766-003-205 wrote: ...as taking it for their Master or Mistress only, actually not liking the pain but trying to prove they are submitting entirely or because their Master/Mistress is a sadist and doing it as a submissive slave. A true masochist actually gets a sexual rush, not just subspace but a sexual rush as well. Well, I can not say I have extensive knowledge on a "true" definition of what a masochist is, but I have always considered myself one and as some slightly humiliating post from Madame (here and on her blog) have demonstrated, I most certainly get more than just a little sexual rush out of it. 766-003-205 wrote: So i AM Born This Way, This is again, a reference to the post above yours I suppose. I could be inclined to debate this further since the innate vs learned nature of dominant, submissive and sadistic inclinations is something I have touched quite a bit in my master thesis. However, this was not the intent of my original post and although threads are bound to be sidetracked eventually, I would rather not be the side tracker of my own thread :p 766-003-205 wrote: (i believe enslavement is an extension of bondage need for those of us who have the need so deeply) I find it interesting that you did not specify that you believe that enslavement is an extension of bondage *for you*. Is it just an oversight in your choice of words, or do you feel that this apply to most slaves? The reason I ask is because personally I have never been happier in my life than as Madame's property. Her control over me is the stabilizing factor to every imbalance I have encountered. Yet, I have no particular love of bondage. Although Madame has found it necessary to restrain me on occasions, it has no pleasurable connotation for me. (Sorry if I posted my short reply to your further post first, it was the easy way of doing it :p ) In perfect love and perfect trust, Alpha. 27 Oct 11, 4:23 PM slaveboy_Alpha CA, 7 mths @Pet_ka_MJ I find your input interesting and you bring interesting points about evolution and the herd mentality. Your focus is strongly pointed to the biological elements, the "hard wired" parts, and perhaps neglects a bit the behavioral approach. I think I would be inclined to agree that, biologically speaking we are born "neutral" on the dominance/submission scale. However, despite the fact that I would like to pursue that avenue of discussion, I am not sure how it relates to my initial question. I realize that some subtleties are sometimes lost on me as English is my second language, so perhaps you might be kind enough to underline the applications of your input to the original subject? Thank you! In perfect love and perfect trust, Alpha. 28 Oct 11, 10:01 AM Prolixitys_Saphira US, 16 mths Yes, I have been involved in instances where the dom is being the masochist. There have been times when my owner is domming me, but at his request I've been the one to dole out the pain and leave the welts. As for the inherently dominant or submissive thing, maybe it is true that most are born one or the other and life's experiences take them further down that path, but that does not account for why I am pretty much dominant in most of my life's dealings, but submissive towards one man while I never had desire to be submissive towards any other males. As for sadomasochistic relationships with no D/s component, it's my understanding that is quite common. I had a couple of friends who in college shared a house with a sadist who did not dom or use bondage with his partners. He did make good use of his hand and the old whips and floggers, but that was it. The was no control aspect at all, no binding of his partners. They got off on the pain alone. And even if there is a bondage component to S & M, that doesn't mean that the top is actually exerting any control over the bottom like in a D/s situation. Yes, you can tie me up and we can play, but that does not mean I'm handing control over to you. I could simply be letting you top me and I am the one to decide what happens and what doesn't. Owned, loved and protected by Prolixity. 30 Oct 11, 3:04 AM tigerlili 3 yrs pet_ka_MJ wrote: I do not think people are born (hardwired) inherently one way (submissive or dominant). There may be a predisposition towards one versus the other, but through conditioning and our environment we cultivate the predisposition or we can change that if we choose to (I am not saying it is easy, but it is doable). I believe being a switch is probably the "biological" norm in that we may have varying amounts of dominant and submissive traits. I realize the "born a slave/submissive" group are going to hate what I just said... but as humans, and all other living things for that matter, are programmed for survival. The "I am only submissive" is counter-intuitive to our survival instinct (the Darwinian debate of survival of the fittest whereby the biologically weak are culled from the evolutionary herd). We may have a preference in terms of our emotional comfort, but this does not mean we can't be dominant (or submissive) when required. I liken this to the mother bear who is generally passive in nature until you come between mother bear and her cubs. I like this post a lot. I'm not sure of my own position in that I have felt submissive since an early age (around five years of age) but I've always wondered what experiences up to that point lead me to feeling this way, either conscious or subconscious. Since I don't know, I can't say for sure that I haven't always been this way, but I agree that it's likely environmental factors will have had a good deal of influence. I do think however that advances in science have lead to people's lives being sustained regardless of their 'fitness', so the survival of the fittest philosophy, particularly in developed countries, probably needs some revising. Next page