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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "The principles and purposes of punishment" 1 2 The principles and purposes of punishment (16) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Tue 31 Aug 10, 3:34 AM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs Recent discussions of punishment have generally been about what kind of punishment and its severity. Only recently in the post on "Master's Request" did the topic shift slightly to discuss the principles and purposes behind punishment. So I am curious to know now... What principles of punishment do Master's use and what purpose does punishment serve? What role does shame, embarassment, humiliation, discomfort and/or fear play? Where do principles such as dignity and/or forgiveness fit? With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair 31 Aug 10, 1:40 PM 254-963-103 6 yrs to discuss the principles and purposes behind punishment. What principles of punishment do Master's use and what purpose does punishment serve? [/quote] My mistress punishes me for a reason or without any reason for her pleasure. I am her object of/for pleasure. I have no say in the matter. Slave owned by FAUSTINA. 31 Aug 10, 3:09 PM SirSeven 3 yrs pet_ka_MJ wrote: What principles of punishment do Master's use and what purpose does punishment serve? What role does shame, embarassment, humiliation, discomfort and/or fear play? Where do principles such as dignity and/or forgiveness fit? Your question is a good one but it's also very broad... but what the heck, I'll take a stab! Are you referring to physical punishment or all types, including non-physical, punishment? Personally, I've found that there are better ways to motivate a slave than using harsh physical punishment. Some non-physical examples include placing restrictions on the slave, disallowing a favorite activity for a while, making them wear/or not wear certain items of clothing, assigning research projects or writing assignments, disallowing the use of furniture or silverware, making them stand in the corner, etc. Harsh looks or that certain "tone" when speaking to them is often more than enough to cause them great physical discomfort since many slaves feel like a failure whenever they have displeased their owner. The list can go on forever. Of course, everyone is different and what I believe won't be true for all. Some relationships are built around a heavy physical punishment/correction dynamic and that's fine. Just go with whatever suits you. I also think the word punishment is frequently confused with kinky play where one spanks, whips, or does X-Y-Z to another. Lately I've developed a bit of a needle/piercing fetish. I also enjoy practicing my single-tail whip technique - but it's not punishment. It's more just something that I ENJOY doing and any slave of mine knows that they will be used for such at my discretion. You'll need to be more specific about the dignity / forgiveness part of your question because this will vary greatly depending on the people and the specific transgression involved. Forgiveness will differ for a slave who forgot to put cream in my coffee compared to a slave who lied to my face, stole my car, or shot my dog. Regards, Sir Seven To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. -Elbert Hubbard 31 Aug 10, 3:29 PM GerardVanDam NL, 4 yrs Personally I dislike "punishment". In my opinion, a good slave does not have to be punished. I feel "rewarding" a slave is often (but not always) the better way to educate him/her. Many in the lifestyle come from BDSM. BDSM often involves humiliation, whips, floggers etc.. Historically these were used for punishment. I come from nowhere, so that may explain the difference in my attitude towards my girls/slaves. @pet_ka_MJ Thank you for this thread. English is not my first language. For many here it is difficult to express their feelings. If I make mistakes, please tell me. Edited 31 Aug 10, 3:31 PM by GerardVanDam 31 Aug 10, 6:36 PM seresse US(PA), 23 mths Y! i find that Sir Seven has it right for me, in that if i have displeased my Master, in any way at all, i do feel very bad and like a failure. No punishment needed beyond that. He sometimes will wait in silence while i work out what displeased Him and how to fix it, or use "that" tone. Works very effectively and immediately. As for dignity and forgiveness, i find that when my Master forgives me, or treats me with dignity i am touched and warmed so deeply inside that i am more motivated than ever to please Him. i melt at His feet, feeling like the most lucky slave in the world to have such a wonderful and kind Master. i have seen in some threads where it does look like the distinction between kinky play and punishment is a little fuzzy, as Sir Seven points out. Not an issue with my Master and i as neither one of us is into that sort of kinky play. From another angle, i have spent many years working with and training horses (which i often compare to M/s, since they are also slaves with a myriad of different ownership dynamics and personalities. Their intelligence and depth are often underestimated. ). What i have found is that punishment really isn't a concept that works in training. They simply do not understand it. (Have found essentially the same to be true for children, too.) When i need to be harsh it is usually to establish or re-establish who is in charge and what proper respect looks like, and is usually in response to a direct challenge. But for training, teaching what i want, it works much better to have that respect already established, then make very clear what i want, and reward their least effort to offer it to me. They begin to shine and love the interaction, offering me more and more - and i feel good about it, too. Mostly i ignore their efforts that are in the wrong direction, waiting for them to find the answer that pleases me. From this trust is built, and can grow a beautiful partnership. seresse 1 Sep 10, 3:02 AM mutable 2 yrs It won't come as a surprise to know I'm not a fan of *punishment*, specifically physical ones. I would also go as far to say that, if the dynamic is good, there should be no need, as there are far better ways of 'correction'. When people talk about punishment I think of *play*. I also think *some* d-types regard such as usual and necessary but again, this is just *play* to me. My opinion is that one can gain far more by sweet than sour. This may take more forethought, patience and time but, if one is considering the long term, the rewards far outweigh those gained by something given *shallowly* (my opinion). 'We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are' Anais Nin 1 Sep 10, 3:31 AM 898-443-818 US, 5 yrs <What principles of punishment do Master's use and what purpose does punishment serve?> Punishment serves as an undesirable consequence to a behavior in order to reduce the likelihood of that behavior occurring again. Like most slaves who have responded, knowing i have disappointed is punishment enough. Our internal feelings provide us enough "punishment" to discourage the scenario/behavior from happening again. i don't get punished a lot; but on occasion i do and it is usually by withdrawal of sexual attention & sexual release, i am still to do what i am told to Master but i am not allowed to participate in the fun very much... not allowed my own orgasm, my own touching, or attention from Him. This works because He's removing the one thing i love most: sexual attention. On occasion corporal punishment is used; even though i like pain, when it is administered knowing it is happening because i have disappointed it is not much fun at all (plus pain pushed farther begins to lack as much fun as "playful" pain, if that makes sense). What role does shame, embarassment, humiliation, discomfort and/or fear play? i don't feel this things when i am being punished-well discomfort yes. And i suppose there is some fear of abandonment, fear of "worse" punishment-but as my Master would say sometimes what goes on in my head is far worse than anything He would ever do i absolutely LOVE shame, embarrassment, humiliation, so these aren't used as punishment, but they are absolutely an effective way to "remind of my place" if i begin to be a little mouthy. <Where do principles such as dignity and/or forgiveness fit? > i am not a very philosophical type but i would say one thing i have always loved about Master is when something is done, it is done: in the past, gone & forgotten, except He means it, it really is. i strive to be more like that myself. i know i am forgiven & feel free of my guilt. i didn't realize (i'm a little slow to pick up on things sometimes!) that people call "punishment" here another word for play. i guess that makes me understand a little more on why so many of the punishment threads annoy people. i assumed people were like me, 24/7 and when they say punishment they mean punishment, not some goofy fantasy or a few swats on the ass. Thank you to those who pointed that out. 898-443-818 i am a slave-i have no rights, no safewords, i do not say "no" to my Master. i do not have "limits". i have entered into consensual slavery, so that may help explain the views in my post. 1 Sep 10, 10:19 AM Master4536 US(IL), 22 mths Remember, the whole purpose of training is to eventually bring the slave to a point of being a true slave mentally (internalized slavery), where his loyalty and commitment are absolute and without question, eventually with no further punishment required. In my home, punishments are designed specifically for the slave and his training; to swiftly extinguish an unwanted behavior. I would never consider taking in a slave until I knew what they loved and hated, and I make it very clear that I am not into BdSm as games or entertainment. At the moment of the slave making an error, the slave is clearly told what he had done wrong, and I make sure he acknowledges and understands. He is given the opportunity to learn and change. Random punishments for actions the slave had no idea were wrong is detrimental to long-term training. If punishment must be given, the slave is always told why the punishment is being delivered, and afterwards the slave must explain what he will do differently in the future should a similar situation arise. Because punishments should be rare, they are always surprisingly extreme but not always physical. The better punishments are a well choreographed combination of mental and physical, and often its shape reflects the slave's earlier transgression. For example, poor cooking results in a 48 hour fast, and being slow to satisfy me sexually could result in intense CBT. Remember, the slave must permanently learn from this punishment. I usually save punishments and rewards until the end of the day. Punishments never cancel out a reward, and vise versa, and are often given in the same evening. This allows for highly targeted training, swift results, and prevents the slave from making a game of it by doing something good in an attempt to cancel out an impending punishment. But, most importantly, I emphasize from the beginning that I am most upset about punishing the slave because... 1. It emphasizes the slave's stupidity because he had already been told once. 2. It brings unwanted attention to the slave TWICE in one day; once when the error occurred and then again later in the day during punishment. 3. It takes unnecessary time out of my day to create and deliver the punishment when I should be relaxing. 4. It forces me to reconsider the slave's value and if I had made the right decision to take him in. ...so, the weight of a slave's error and the resulting punishment can have a far greater impact than just the error, amplifying my disappointment in the slave. These 4 points are always mentioned during the punishment. More interesting is how rewarding a slave for exceptional behavior will instill eagerness and happiness in a slave, making him very content and actually more intelligent. While punishments can define what is bad, the slave must know what is good. It is far easier for him to follow the correct road than for him to have to guess what it is the correct path from a long list of bad roads and then live in constant fear if a new road is bad or not. I like my slaves to be confident and eager to please, so I reward for him for excellent decisions. I give only one warning, and then punish only if they ignore the warning. You will never be able to beat devotion into a slave. It must be offered freely by the slave in exchange for your trust and caring. When you diminish your trust, they will diminish their devotion. So to build trust, make your rules very clear and specific so they can lead a life free of fear, and offering all they can to you as their protector and Master. To the non-masochistic slaves, if a Master beats you without any reason other than to "prove his dominance" or sets you up for failure just as a reason to beat you for his own sadistic pleasure, then HE has a mental problem and you should get out of there. The relationship isn't doing anyone any good, because there is no way in Hell that a slave could or should change their Master, or to even expect their Master to change. Such abuse has nothing to do with a Master-slave relationship or training. In a good relationship, there is a beautiful balance created by the symbiosis. The security and confidence in a high quality leash goes both ways, and my training's primary goal is to create a very strong leash; not to the slave's collar, but to his heart and soul. 1 Sep 10, 12:28 PM 978-291-889 2 yrs pet_ka_MJ wrote: The principles and purposes of punishment Recent discussions of punishment have generally been about what kind of punishment and its severity. Only recently in the post on "Master's Request" did the topic shift slightly to discuss the principles and purposes behind punishment. So I am curious to know now... What principles of punishment do Master's use and what purpose does punishment serve? What role does shame, embarassment, humiliation, discomfort and/or fear play? Where do principles such as dignity and/or forgiveness fit? Master has a 'sliding scale' for my behaviour and the punishment for displeasing ties in with the scale. For us, the purpose of punishment is to irradicate the unwanted behaviour. Punishment has ranged from being struck with the cane and repeating outloud what i was being punished for with each stroke (this was VERY different to 'play' beatings). I have been bannished in the past so i have time to reflect on my behaviour. This doesnt work very well for me, as i slip into negative thought cycles - although Master is always careful that He is still accessible should i need Him, but this is only in emergencies and not for 'conversation'. I have also had possessions taken from me as form of punishment. Bannishment has a heavy element of fear linked with it - fear of abandonment. I know that should i ever behave so dispicably, and my behaviour reaches 10 on the scale, my collar will be burned. That is a MASSIVE fear but a very effective and real deterrant. Master knows what will and won't work for me - when i was bannished it made me realise just how precious my relationship/role is and how i would feel if i were to loose that. I also think a lot about the way Master feels when He is forced to punish me. I know He does not like raising His voice/issuing punishments - so the best way to keep Master happy all round is to behave (obviously!!!) Master has likened 'telling me off' to kicking a puppy. I feel the effects in multiple ways, i have displeased which makes me feel terrible, then i know i have forced Master to punish me and i know He is feeling bad and dislikes doing this, so i feel worse.... Like many others have said, the knowledge i have let Master down is enough to cause LOTS of physical and emotional discomfort.... i feel like a failure. I have never understood people who say they are 'punished' regularly for their Master/Mistresses pleasure... I am beaten regularly, often with elements of humiliation involved - but this is not punishment, it is 'play', it is something we both enjoy and often it is used as a reward. Those who enjoy a good flogging know the difference between a flogging for 'play' and a flogging for punishment. They FEEL different, there is no pleasure in being whipped for punishment.... other than the forgiveness that comes at the end. I know if i can endure whatever punishment Master administers with grace, i will ultimately receive forgiveness at the end of it... else there would be no reason to punish - it would be abuse (IMO). I possibly havent explained that very well. The cuffs and ropes might have to be removed in the morning... but the bonds of love stretch as far as 2 people can roam. 1 Sep 10, 4:11 PM 672-394-817 FI, 2 yrs If I behave badly, which I sometimes do when I´m very tired or have pms-symptoms, Lady ignores me - I can´t get Her attencion that way. I have to kneel,apology my behavior and explain what caused it before She talks to me again. That makes me feel very humble and slavelike and I´m so happy to have Her acceptance again. I´ve learned rather quickly to correct my behavior myself to avoid that kind of "punisment". She never uses pain to punish me, because I´m a masochist. I only get whipped when I have been a good girl..(that must sound funny in other peoples ears ). slave Anelma 1 Sep 10, 10:31 PM thegildedlili 3 yrs I just have a few questions/comments Master4536... Master4536 wrote: More interesting is how rewarding a slave for exceptional behavior will instill eagerness and happiness in a slave, making him very content and actually more intelligent. (my bold) I'm interested in this assertion. Do you have any sources to support this claim? Master4536 wrote: While punishments can define what is bad, the slave must know what is good. It is far easier for him to follow the correct road than for him to have to guess what it is the correct path from a long list of bad roads and then live in constant fear if a new road is bad or not. I like my slaves to be confident and eager to please, so I reward for him for excellent decisions. I give only one warning, and then punish only if they ignore the warning. What sort of rewards are you talking about? I'm not such a fan of tangible rewards as I feel that it breeds an expectation, or a sense of only doing something because one knows they are going to be rewarded for it. If you're talking about social rewards (a pat on the head, praise and encouragement etc) then yes, I do agree it can be useful. Master4536 wrote: To the non-masochistic slaves, if a Master beats you without any reason other than to "prove his dominance" or sets you up for failure just as a reason to beat you for his own sadistic pleasure, then HE has a mental problem and you should get out of there. The relationship isn't doing anyone any good, because there is no way in Hell that a slave could or should change their Master, or to even expect their Master to change. Such abuse has nothing to do with a Master-slave relationship or training. What if I am a "non-masochist" and he beats me because he is a sadist and does it simply because he likes it? Are you saying that if the slave doesn't enjoy it, then that makes it abuse? I'm really only a masochist in the sense that I get enjoyment out of having pain inflicted on me by a sadist because *he* enjoys it, but unless I'm confused, by your definition that would make him an abuser. In answer to the OP: the way that i see it is quite simple: training is the introduction of a new concept, discipline is the repetition and reinforcement of that concept, and punishment is the price of letting standards slip in regard to whatever concept the slave's training is focused on. With that in mind, I believe punishment should be used in that way, as a means of punishing the slave for behaviours that are not up to the standard they should be after training and reinforcement. I agree with what others have posted, that the shame of having done the wrong thing should be enough of a deterrent to not do it again, but coupled with an appropriate punishment, it should give an even greater incentive not to repeat that same transgression. I also agree that it is reassuring to know that once a punishment is complete, that it is time to move on, but to say it is forgotten completely is unrealistic, and less of an incentive not to repeat the same transgression. i have no need, for such things, but to make you happy... Josh Pyke Next page