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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "HOW LARGE IS YOUR “NO-LIMITS”?" 1 2 3 4 HOW LARGE IS YOUR “NO-LIMITS”? (36) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 1 Sep 10, 4:47 PM Sir_Aldric 5 yrs mia wrote: Sir_Aldric wrote: Personally I think the "no-limits" is a interesting optical illusion within consensual slavery where two people can fascinated glaze at. In the moment one of them says: "nah, don't like this and that any more", the bubble collapses and the illusion is over. Is that bad? No, it is the reality check. People are simply too complicated to maintain something like real "no-limits" for a longer period of time. Sir Aldric Hmm, i'm going to have to disagree here. If there is a deal braker, then i can see there are problems with what i'm going to say, but in most cases the "nah, don't like this and that any more" should not a limit make. A Master/Mistress may decide that their sub's enjoyment of this activity is important and that this statement communicates that their enjoyment is over. However, if the activity is more important to the D-type's enjoyment, then i think the D-type should override their s-type's preference, if it is indeed only that. The above i have argued from an M/s point of view. Other D/s and S&M points of view could well look different. But if we are to argue that a 'slave' is the property of his or her owner, then i don't see how they can have limits without good reason. m, x Someone who disagrees with me??? Jeez.. what's next? One moment.. let me check first if the world is still rotating.. hm.. seems to be ok for now.. well, that's a relief anyway.. So back to your post. I think if you check all "no-limits" slaves here that you will find that each and everyone has a 'minor' list of limit-exceptions to the no-limit rule. People change, circumstances change, exceptions will be added to and removed from said list. Of course it is called "no-limits" and it will be called that way no matter the length of the list or what is added or removed: the optical illusion as mentioned before. Really no-limits? So a Master could state: "no family contacts anymore, no active participation in any religion, etc..". Ok, I agree, that might be a bit harsh.. Let's put that on the list of exceptions meaning family and religion are a general exception, but for sure anything else is definitely no-limits! Until the next exception pops up of course.. I think real no-limits is per definition impossible to do in consensual slavery; what remains is the illusion.. Smile, Sir Aldric Relax, life is too short to get upset. 1 Sep 10, 5:08 PM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs Sir_Aldric wrote: I think real no-limits is per definition impossible to do in consensual slavery; what remains is the illusion.. Exactly... because if you find a Master who has similar limits, values and life goals as you, that list of exceptions is few and far between. The only limit that might be considered a limit in our relatiosnhip is participating in our local BDSM community, not because it is a personal limit of mine, but my employer, who stesses that employees must be of "good moral character" (did you see my eyes roll on that one) would have a fit. So, as both Master and I really like my pay cheque... we do not. External limits really suck... it is sorta like kids, they impose all sorts of limits on relationships and what can and can't be done and when. Overall, I get the impression that "no-limits" pertains mostly to the BDSM type play that is aften associated with M/s relationships. This is where pulling out a BDSM checklist before the relationship ever starts is a good thing. The couple can go over what they like, dislike and how much and what is on the "to do" list (this is when the Honey-Do list really means something ... or in our case the Honey-Please-Do list). This is where the Master knowing how and when to push and how far comes in very helpful... and it all boils down again as jjslave said to matching your limits to that of your Master and trusting he is not going to kill you in the process. As for mia's comment about being challenged and pushing limits... gawd I hope so... life would be pretty freaking boring if we never tested or challenged ourselves (this applies to Master's as well)... isn't this where the best learning in life takes place... in that small space between "I don't think I can do this" and "I did it?" Whether you have limits or no-limits, it is all relative and everything can change as the relationship develops and grows. With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair 1 Sep 10, 5:33 PM mia UK, 11 yrs I still think the term 'no limits' can be used authentically though. For example, at the start of our relationship i had a 'list' of things which were important to me. It was things that i held dear to me and things i felt i couldn't function properly without. Amongst those was access to certain family members and allowing me time for my faith. If my Master were to turn around and say that the access i want/need/require to a family member was no longer possible, i know that he'd either have REALLY good reasons or that he was no longer the right one for me. For people who i have not mentioned on this 'list', then it is up to him if i have access or not and how frequent this access could be. For example, a friend of mine wanted to meet up with me and my Master refused to allow me. He had his reasons and they were all reasons for him. I thought this was extremely unfair, uncalled for, etc. But it is something i no longer have control over and as much as these sorts of things can be difficult, i agreed to these sorts of limits being placed upon me when i entered the relationship i am in. This could be said for S&M activities too. If i'd put something on my list of things important to me something like 'needles', due to a phobia or really bad past experience, then i know if he planned to use them on me that he'd have REALLY good reasons (rather than just because he wanted to and could) or that he was no longer the right one for me. 'Limits' can change as we go through experiences, good and bad, which is why it is perhaps better to think of them as things that would make your relationship/life unmanegeable/unworkable. However, i do think there needs to be good reason, from either M or s for them to be made or broken for the relationship to be M/s. m, x 1 Sep 10, 5:56 PM seresse US(PA), 23 mths Y! i have been pondering this question since reading it yesterday - and wondering. i find myself feeling a bit confused within myself on this subject. On the one hand i would define myself as a no-limits slave - Master stated clearly He would not allow me a 'safe-word', which actually pleases me. On the other hand, i am a human being and as such have limits of what i can take physically and psychologically. Master and i are still exploring what those are and how far can they be expanded and released - and which ones are too deeply a part of my wiring to be changed. i will break if pushed too far - so that counts as a limit, it would seem. But perhaps the difference is that i do not have the power to make Him stop if He should decide to push me past my limits. And by power i understand that legally obviously i have that power, but within myself, psychologically i don't. But having not been pushed past my limits, i don't know what 'breaking' would look like for me. Would it look like me running away? Would it look like me fighting back? Perhaps i would just crumple up on the floor and stop living. i don't know. Like pet_ka_MJ talks about, i am in deep trust that my Master cares way too deeply for me to push me to a breaking point. He values me happy and intact, so all His demands and explorations have that as their foundation, so then maybe the question is moot? And if He didn't care for me, He wouldn't have earned my surrender and be my Master. Is that a limit in itself? i am curious, Sir Aldric, which limits you are referring to: the inherent limits of being human, or the ones made up to retain some control? i actually laugh at myself because i have in fact stated to my Master early on that i had certain limits and wouldn't give him power in those areas of my life. And then proceeded to concede when he put pressure on me to release control. The illusion for me is that i do have the power to resist Him when He wants something, and i amuse myself (and probably Him)in my attempts to retain some sense of power and freedom. He does manage me just right so the pressure isn't so much that i snap, but steady and consistent enough that i give in and let go. He generously allows me that illusion, as long as it doesn't interfere with what He feels is important, but once it does, He will remove that illusion and i will surrender. For me slavery is a deep path to freedom from all the limitations my ego and social conditioning place on me. And as a path, it implies progress in a direction, not a state of being that is stable. Master pushes my limits, listens to me when i say i am getting too stressed, and uses that information to adjust what He does with me. It would appear that i have a certain amount of power, wouldn't it? Isn't that a contradiction of the definition of 'slave'? So as you can see, it is a question i am still exploring and have no answers to. Not even sure there is an answer, as such. Not even sure it is a useful question to be asking, though it is certainly interesting to think about and explore. Also i did want to mention that i, too, feel the competition aspect of this question. i hadn't really noted it consciously until pet_ka_MJ mentioned it, but i am aware that i am vulnerable to feeling like a "less-than" slave for having limits of what i can handle, even though i know in my head that it is really not relevant. My dynamic works really well for me and i am very pleased with my lifestyle and my Master, and the direction we are going in. What else matters, right? seresse 1 Sep 10, 7:24 PM 898-443-818 US, 5 yrs <Really no-limits? So a Master could state: "no family contacts anymore, no active participation in any religion, etc..". Ok, I agree, that might be a bit harsh.. Let's put that on the list of exceptions meaning family and religion are a general exception> Sir Aldric i am surprised to hear You say such things i would adhere to both of those examples if told to by my Master. However, i agree that i chose my Master, and Him me, carefully, and we have been together 5 years, the longer end of the spectrum that one of the poster's provided-and we are married, so i assume we will be well above the norm at some point... all that saying my Master wouldn't ask such things without good reason... and also adding my original point from my first post, there is no point in discussing "what if your Master wanted you to kill your neighbor with an axe!!!" because, while that is fun devil's advocate, it is not the real, practical world in which we function on an daily level. For example i DID change religious faiths to become a member of His-but i knew what His was since the beginning so it wasn't like one day it just happened and i was all traumatized. <This is where pulling out a BDSM checklist before the relationship ever starts is a good thing.> my Master did exactly this, before we even met in person (i think we only knew each other 24 hours LOL) and then asked me His own questions in addition. But as time went on i was happy He did so-it certainly did avoid alot of drama later on i would imagine. <isn't this where the best learning in life takes place... in that small space between "I don't think I can do this" and "I did it?"> aw, see, you guys are so good with words As far as the idea of illusion, i think we could say "love", O&p itself, it's all kind of an illusion isn't it? i mean even a vanilla relationship both sides have to buy into it or else it is gone. <Master pushes my limits, listens to me when i say i am getting too stressed, and uses that information to adjust what He does with me. It would appear that i have a certain amount of power, wouldn't it? Isn't that a contradiction of the definition of 'slave'? > i agree with this as well, although the old "The sub has the power in the relationship" line really does start to lose some of its gusto when "no limits" are involved-in other words, it may appear that way, but, if He wanted to do harm, He could, and therein lies the vulnerability. Perhaps it is like the old zoo story-they had to give the animals a place to hide, and when they did, they didn't use it, they were out and moving around. But without the hiding place, they sat idly in the corner feeling afraid. Maybe we tell ourselves our Master's will never abuse their no limit power because that is our place to hide. Well, what an interesting topic. 898-443-818 i am a slave-i have no rights, no safewords, i do not say "no" to my Master. i do not have "limits". i have entered into consensual slavery, so that may help explain the views in my post. 1 Sep 10, 8:08 PM Lord_Uther UK, 6 yrs I think we're talking about 2 different things, we're confusing mentality with actuality. Yes, I require that my slave have a no limits mentality but that doesn't mean that I would use that to demand unrealistic obedience. I think it comes down to semantics & contextual definitions, when we say no limits in that we also read 'within bounds of health, safety & realism'. When we talk 'no limits' we don't actually mean no limits. I think if any Master asked a slave to hack off their hand with an axe the slave would, rightly so, tell the Master to go fuck them self, and I don't think a single one of us who professes no limits would look at that slave and think, 'well he/she wasn't no limits, what a fake'. We would denounce their ex-master as a psycho and comfort said slave. Just because someone has a no limit mentality it doesn't mean, in practice, that they would do anything and everything. It just means they trust their Master to set the boundaries. My name is Lord Uther, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! 2 Sep 10, 12:20 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs I think the concept of "limits/no limits" is useful to BDSM-type activities but not in reference to the O&P relationship as a whole. While I can honestly say that I would do anything C asked of me, it's a thing I can say because I KNOW he would never ask me to do anything harmful to myself or others (excepting in self-defense), or morally wrong. Nor would he expect me to significantly abandon my own perceptions of reality. If he would I wouldn't obey him, but then neither would I have committed myself to him in the first place. It's a "catch-22" idea that to my thinking has no real meaning or necessity. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) Edited 2 Sep 10, 12:22 AM by EvaMaria 3 Sep 10, 2:07 AM Mona_Demarkov HR, 2 yrs Having No Limits is such a crucial element of our relationship that we had to put the whole Owner/slave thing on hold till we figured out how exactly to manage this concept while still living in the "real" world. For example, someone mentioned family and friends: we (especially my partner) are both adamant that I should be able to take all his rights away at a whim on that level as well, yet, naturally, his attachment and love for these people stops him from being able to embrace this thought completely in reality. It is an interesting and difficult struggle, however I am sure we shall work something out. We have now finally both fully admitted and embraced the fact that we are heavily into (consensual) non-consensual slavery, therefore, we are on the right track. Our "plight" does, however, bring home the fact that for some people on here the No Limits rule really needs to be thoroughly in place before anything in this particular realm can be enjoyable. (p.s. so you can imagine that we really have no limits for physical play: we basically don't do what I find boring. That's about it). 3 Sep 10, 1:48 PM angelik US(CA), 5 yrs In the beginning is when there is a negotiaton period. i have a no limits relationship and fortunatly what i thought were my limits were part of what Master;s things he wasn't into anyway. I agree with so many parts of what people have posted thus far that i don't have much to say. over the last 7 years there have been a lot of changes as Master decided some of my soft limits or things i was fearful of but i know He would never harm me, He has pushed me through them and i knew up front that was going to happen and now i enjoy these things. Like Master has always said, that i have the limits that He has given me.i trust him implicitly. the limits or things we are nervous about doing, the one thing i always remember is that Master's pleasure is forthrite the number one priority. Edited 3 Sep 10, 2:00 PM by angelik 3 Sep 10, 7:27 PM 978-291-889 2 yrs I don't know if i'm no limits or not... I know there are very few things in my life i would fight to the grim death to hang on to - but would i ultimately roll over if told 'thats how it is'? I dont know until i am there... Like many others have said, i dont think i will ever be in that place, simply because Master knows what is important, what i can live without and what my limits are... He knows that a happy Slave is a productive Slave I too, in the past have had my limits pushed, and things i thought were hard limits at the beginning have been chipped away at over the years until they become soft limits and then chipped at further until they are no longer limits and are now things i actively seek and enjoy. Initially the enjoyment came from pleasing Master, now there is the added pleasure - that i actually enjoy the activity in its own right - not just because i am consciously surrendering for His pleasure. I trust Master would not put me in any danger, nor would He ask me to do anything illegal. He has in the past asked me to go against beliefs i held to be dear and i have done this without much thought (removed myself from the organ donation register). Master has said i belong to Him, it is His choice what happens in the event of my death. He knows my wishes. I trust He would build slowly towards something that He knows i will struggle with, He will ensure i understand what is expected of me in any given situation. Master and i know how far we have come together in our relationship - we will continue to grow and change... and as we do, life will throw limits at us and we will encounter limits of our own - at other times, there will be no limits The cuffs and ropes might have to be removed in the morning... but the bonds of love stretch as far as 2 people can roam. Next page