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	TSR : Web boards : O&P : "Promises vs Legally" 1 2 Promises vs Legally (13) This post is on the O&P web board. Wed 10 Mar 10, 7:44 PM Milchvienhalter US, 23 mths Y! My question deals with slaves and their owners as well as submissives and their dominants. The possible gender combinations being irrelevant to the issue. When forming the relationship it seems -- from empirical observation -- that most are done using an oral promise. That a much smaller number of these relationships are formed using an written promise. ************* Please note that I've used the word "promise" as opposed to the word "contract" as I don't wish to confuse the issue with something that's actually legally binding/enforceable in a court of law. ************* My question is this: How many go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? (please note that depending upon jurisdiction there are various levels of incompetency) By having this done the real-world ramifications concerning the slaves/submissives ability for self-determination are profound. Control of the most basic functions of life are now LEGALLY (and thus enforceable in a court of law) in the hands of their owner/dominant. Even further, this condition can be (depending upon jurisdiction) permanent for the life of the slave/submissive so that should a new owner/dominant come into the picture the "ownership/control" would necessitate a legal proceeding whereby the new owner/dominant was made the slaves/submissives ward. Granted this is costly. But it most certainly is far more meaningful than a simple promise (oral or written). So how many out there go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? 10 Mar 10, 8:39 PM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs In my juristiction, we have adult guardian legislation. I have attempted to use it on several occassions in cases where a person was being extremely neglected and abused by a partner or family member and there was some level of mental impairment (dementia, severe substance abuse, mental illness). Of the 24 cases I have been involved in since 2001 when the legislation was enacted, only one case was the person declared imcompetent. The only reason this occurred was that the person had a history of severe mental illness that included violent episodes. In order for the judge to enact the order, it took 2 medical doctors agreeing, 2 psychiatrists agreeing, the family members, 3 separate social welfare agencies and the police petitioning the courts for the declaration. Even then, the courts were reluctant to declare the person permanently incompetent and ordered a judical review of the file after 2 years. The legislation has had some success with the elderly (once Public Guardian and Trustee was involved) and persons with delayed development issues (ie. down syndrome). While, the idea might sound like it has merit on the surface, I see a relucance of the Canadian court system to deny any person the right to self determination, even if they willing wish to revoke it. A test case would be in order to determine the court's will on this matter. Interesting concept, but I find trying to use legislation for a non-intended purpose rarely if ever succeeds as there are built in tests to determine eligibility for application of the law. I would be curious to hear other's thoughts on this topic. With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair 10 Mar 10, 8:53 PM 834-243-250 2 yrs This makes me think of the Britney Spears conservatorship... I wonder if there is a voluntary way for an individual to give themselves over to this kind of legally binding control that is less costly, and has less "roadblocks" along the way. I know there is power of attorney, but I don't think it's as legally binding. Great question though! Also, I think it depends on the situation as to if this makes sense. If something were to happen to the Master, what would happen to the "ward"? - Slave In Training 10 Mar 10, 11:09 PM masterfiremaam US(WV), 5 yrs Milchvienhalter wrote: Promises vs Legally My question is this: How many go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? The problem with this actually doing this is that is takes more than just a person saying, "Yeah, I'm incompetent and want this person to take over my life for me," for them to actually be legally incompetent. It's not a choice, but a state of being that has a specific history of behavior that must be documented AND corroborated by witnesses. Even then, it takes a LOT to prove someone can't run their own life. For a competent adult, it is much easier to pursue legal powers of attorney. Even so, there's only so much power a person can give up legally. Master Fire **The power of who we are can be intoxicating.** **The power of who we could be is humbling.** **Yet, we are assured we are exactly as we should be.** 11 Mar 10, 1:58 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Milchvienhalter wrote: So how many out there go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? Like Master Fire, I'd don't think what you've presented is likely. At least in the US, competency is a thing considered in determining the best interests of the individual, rather than as a vehicle to benefit a third party. As in, legally valid conservator/guardianship would probably not include the use of the ward as a slave, and definitely not (in specific to your own requirements) as "mindless cattle". Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 11 Mar 10, 4:25 AM 333-528-841 CA, 3 yrs I would have to agree with the above replies. It really doesn't sound very practical or realistic to believe that the legal system would just hand someone over to you. You say it would be Legal... have you considered that even if you could pull off something like this and con, or convice that many experienced judicators, it would legally be void, if found to be fraudulant, although you would never get that far? For life, I do believe that that is also not likely as there would probably be conditions attached and revisits to court in order to assess the situation. Since you want mindless cattle, I think you may have a hard time finding someone that mindless that would give consent. They would be incompetent to give consent if they were mindless. Hardly responsible actions from a good Dom or Master. 333-528-841 Life shouldn't be measured by the breaths you take; but by the moments that take your breath away - unknown 15 Mar 10, 2:14 PM AnathemaMaster US(IL), 3 yrs Y! Milchvienhalter wrote: Promises vs Legally Granted this is costly. But it most certainly is far more meaningful than a simple promise (oral or written). You either dominate, or you do not. That is the blunt reality. Your 'promise' either has real weight, or it is empty, and in either case the legal apparatus cannot help you. Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. Tacitus 19 Mar 10, 2:59 PM Haltehk UK, 23 mths AnathemaMaster wrote: Milchvienhalter wrote: Promises vs Legally Granted this is costly. But it most certainly is far more meaningful than a simple promise (oral or written). You either dominate, or you do not. That is the blunt reality. Your 'promise' either has real weight, or it is empty, and in either case the legal apparatus cannot help you. Well said, besides the fact the slave/submissive has willing given over control of their lives to thier Dominant, usualy out of love, why would anyone want it to be legaly binding. The fact of the matter is. If you want a costly and legaly binding contract, engage in marriage (or civil partnership). Becuase even in vanilla as I'm sure everone knows relationships can degrade to the point where two people cannot bear to be with one another. 22 Mar 10, 10:57 PM 375-295-503 UK, 23 mths In the UK, a person can apply for Lasting Power of attorney to enable another to look after their financial, property and health and welfare concerns for when they lack capacity. As this is in conjunction with the Mental Health Act, this would have major consequences to the individual; and therefore quite a dangerous area to involve yourself with. Marriage licences are legally binding and yet, both parties can still can be released from the contracts. The inference is that promises are not given the same credibility as contracts in the M/s world, however to give yourself as a slave, totally, freely and willingly - Is that not the greatest prize you can give? 24 Mar 10, 8:16 PM 396-823-068 2 yrs Master says that guardianship would be better because it is permanent and you don't have to be incompetent to get it. He says that with marriage you can still be taken for all you've got (as my Master has had a bad experience with marriage already). He says it should only be done with a pre-nuptial agreement. * Slave Cim * 4 Jul 10, 8:02 PM Lord_Uther UK, 6 yrs Milchvienhalter wrote: Promises vs Legally My question deals with slaves and their owners as well as submissives and their dominants. The possible gender combinations being irrelevant to the issue. When forming the relationship it seems -- from empirical observation -- that most are done using an oral promise. That a much smaller number of these relationships are formed using an written promise. ************* Please note that I've used the word "promise" as opposed to the word "contract" as I don't wish to confuse the issue with something that's actually legally binding/enforceable in a court of law. ************* My question is this: How many go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? (please note that depending upon jurisdiction there are various levels of incompetency) By having this done the real-world ramifications concerning the slaves/submissives ability for self-determination are profound. Control of the most basic functions of life are now LEGALLY (and thus enforceable in a court of law) in the hands of their owner/dominant. Even further, this condition can be (depending upon jurisdiction) permanent for the life of the slave/submissive so that should a new owner/dominant come into the picture the "ownership/control" would necessitate a legal proceeding whereby the new owner/dominant was made the slaves/submissives ward. Granted this is costly. But it most certainly is far more meaningful than a simple promise (oral or written). So how many out there go to the trouble of having their slave/submissive declared legally incompetent and the owner/dominant declared their ward? Tbh I find the idea extremely appealing in theory. I definately see how attractive & horny that would be. To legally own my slave would highest form our relationship could take. Yes, I agree to have a slave submit wilfully is horny, so how much sexier if they submit so completely, so willingly. I agree that people change but in my mind if the Master changes it is the slaves role to change to meet the new circumstances. And if the 2 people cannot bear to be near each other any more then the Master will want out just as much, so if there were release paper's that could be signed by the Owner. It could be seen by the outside world as our form of marriage with divorce only enactable by the Owner. Unfortunately in practice it would lead to all sorts of abuse. How easy would it be for some conman to persuade a trusting sub to sign their life over and abuse it? In an ideal world yes but in today's world... My name is Lord Uther, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! Next page