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	TSR : Web boards : O&P : "What do I do now?" 1 2 3 What do I do now? (29) This post is on the O&P web board. Thu 7 Jan 10, 12:18 AM Mona_Demarkov HR, 2 yrs Hello, I am going to try to sum my question/problem up as succinctly as possible, but forgive me if I prattle on a bit, it's an issue that has a few details, please bear with me... I've been into BDSM since I can remember, have actively pursued it for the last 10 or so years, have analyzed it to death over the years, had 3 BDSM partners (after the first vanilla boyfriend), had all the toys and equipment possible, had complex relationships with my boyfriends/subs, and now have reached a point with my new partner where I am at a near total loss as to how to be his Domme. His ideal fantasy for most of his life has been to be broken, through clever physical and mental torture, training and manipulation (something like INSEX, if any of you remember that) and therefore trained and brainwashed into becoming an object, with no will of his own, all his possessions, responsibilities, identity taken away from him. He wants to be owned mind, body and soul. He is otherwise quite a dominant, stubborn, complex character, and as is often the case, his every day vanilla life has nothing to do with the character he wants to identify with in his fantasy. I am his first BDSM partner, and I love his fantasy, it is very close to mine. We knew each other for a year and a half now, have been dating and living together for 6 months. We both know that his fantasy can't be done fully, given it is incompatible with “real life” duties, yet we are hoping to at least get the feeling it could be so, or get as close as possible mentally. This does not mean that I want to have him not exist as his vanilla self with me (because I would find that very boring and miss him), but would like to find a way where he feels we have such an extreme relationship under all the “normal” day to day life. Of course, not only have we not got even close to this, but we seem to be getting further and further away from it. We first tried by setting rules and protocol that we could use in every day life, like him asking me for permission for things, like peeing, eating etc etc…We tried doing “play scenes”, like the usual stuff one finds in BDSM (from subtle psychological, humiliation, bondage, various ass play etc etc etc, to the physical: he can take quite a hard caning, for example). We have tried punishing him for things he has done wrong, we have tried making things subtle, we have tried making things obvious, we gave him a Prince Albert piercing as a beginning of being marked (we are both into marking him), we have tried quite a few things…None seem to make him feel good, or even subby. Real life gets in the way, of course, I understand that, but I can't even get a hint of actual submission from him. He will do ANYTHING I ask him to, yet he doesn't “feel” it, just does it automatically. Which, in his words, is part of the control, to do stuff for me even when he doesn't feel like it, but I would prefer that to be a rare part, not the bulk of it. My first mistake was to assume that his definition of D/s was my definition of D/s. I basically saw it from a servitude point of view, he saw it from a control point of view. Yet the control needed to be much stronger than I ever anticipated, I guess. I am slowly starting to think whether I will have to drag out the crazy sadist in me, the one that I hide so deeply, because for years I was convinced that I am a sensual, mind controlling Domme, someone into the subtle yet (in my mind) powerful ties of seduction, humiliation, addiction…But I failed. And my sub is getting more and more depressed. I am looking into the relationship of Miss_Despotic and her Dom on IC (some of her weblogs describe it nicely) and I am wondering if that is what I need to start off with, that level of “real” fear, control, sadism…I am capable of that, I think, since in my fantasies I have pretty much no limits, yet I am such a docile person in real life, I find it really hard to actually execute such things. It doesn't come naturally to me, but I am very capable of doing it, if that makes sense. I feel a bit alone in this, like I am taking on a gigantic task that I alone must finish, have never done or seen done before, and I don't have the instructions. My sub is a sweetheart, we have discussed this a million times, he is trying his best, insists that it is not my fault (since, of course, I am stupidly starting to feel useless and my self esteem as a Domme is trickling away) and I love him enough to want to try anything to own him. I guess I don't really have a question after all, just would appreciate any advice, thoughts, comments… Thank you. Edited Thu 7 Jan 10, 12:32 AM by Mona_Demarkov 7 Jan 10, 1:05 AM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Maleficent_Smiles wrote: None seem to make him feel good, or even subby. Real life gets in the way, of course, I understand that, but I can't even get a hint of actual submission from him. He will do ANYTHING I ask him to, yet he doesn't “feel” it, just does it automatically. Which, in his words, is part of the control, to do stuff for me even when he doesn't feel like it, but I would prefer that to be a rare part, not the bulk of it. If you want to get him feeling like that, it sounds as if you will need to repeatedly get him into situations where he is doing things against his will. That means finding things you are ok with happening and if necessary, doing to him, but that he hates but can cope with. He's got a PA, so have you tried physical chastity for instance? The PA would make that very real and hard to defeat. I feel a bit alone in this, like I am taking on a gigantic task that I alone must finish, have never done or seen done before, and I don't have the instructions. That's pretty much it. Trial and error, and listening to how other people do it (as you are already doing) is really the only way to develop your own style for this new, more controlling relationship you're pursuing. One general point I would also say (that you may well already know), is that just as we try to remove feelings of false entitlement from slaves and submissives, we should cultivate our own feelings of justified entitlement. He's submitted to you, and is begging you for all this. It's yours to take in the way that pleases you. Just as "i" helps some submissives set aside false entitlements, not taking decisions or thinking about them as "we" may help with a dominant's justified entitlement. The kind of person he seems to want to become doesn't help make decisions: he makes suggestions if asked and begs for privileges he hopes to receive. Best wishes, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Service. Dignity. Authenticity. Rituals. 7 Jan 10, 3:09 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs I'm with Tanos on this. Most dominant thing you can do is to say, "This relationship is going to go the way I want it, at the rate I want it, and you can just shut the fuck up and go along with it, and if you can't do that you need to do some serious thinking about whether you really are right for this." I get the strong feeling that he is having trouble with submitting, and he thinks that being "broken" will make everything easy and natural so that he doesn't have to struggle. In other words, he wants to cheat. But it doesn't work that way. Even IE is a long, gradual, subtle process. He doesn't get to cheat. He gets to struggle (against his own selfishness) and fight (his own urges to control) and pit himself against himself. Your job is to keep the battle pointed in that direction. Yes, you are failing ... but not because you can't provide him with his fantasy. You're failing because you're allowing him to set the standard for how things "should" be progressing. If you do what you think is right and he just keeps rebelling, then there needs to be a sit-down and the words, "Look, do you really want to be here? Then I need to see some proof of that!" need to be said. Life is getting in the way? It may be that you will never have the control you want and that he says he wants until you are in control of all the details of his life - until you are supervising every minute of his day. The shit he's talking about - being "broken" - you don't do that and hold a day job. You don't do that and live somewhere else, or have any other relationships. You do that under 24/7 scrutiny, if at all. So if you can't get that kind of control over the entirety of his life, you need to be realistic - and as the dominant, force him to be realistic - and tell him "This is as far as we go while circumstances remain as they are." Period. And even getting him to a deeper level of submission, you're going to have to challenge him to do things he doesn't want to do. Notice I said "challenge". Challenge him to not only do them well and obediently, but with a good attitude as well. If he can't master that, he will not be able to go deeper. It needs to be clear to him that he does not get to say how this relationship will go. If this makes him run away, at least it will teach him a lesson in how submissive he isn't, really. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 7 Jan 10, 9:59 AM davida93291 US, 6 yrs Y! Maybe I'm just repeating in different words what has already been said. But isn't the basic problem that he doesn't feel submissive because he isn't being submissive. He is controlling you by complaining that you are not making him feel as controlled as he wants to be. He is the one setting the agenda, not you. You are changing your behavior trying to satisfy him. You must be very tired by now. I am guessing you need a break. Have you tried just restraining him and taking some time off? Maybe some tape over his mouth and a nice evening watching TV with him locked in another room or chained to the wall, repeated as needed, would make this better. In other words, forget about what he wants. Make him accept what you want. 7 Jan 10, 12:39 PM Mona_Demarkov HR, 2 yrs davida93291 you made me laugh...or almost cry from relief, actually, because yes, I am very tired, and what you suggested sounded divine: lock him away for a few days...I mean, hours...*sigh* Thank you everyone for your eloquent advice, I think I was side-tracked by my partner, in a good way at first, given he is the first person I met within the BDSM scene whose fantasies prompted me to discover this site and its implications, for example, something that I have been yearning for for many years. Up until now I thought such things were mere extreme fantasy (such an element of "real" enslavement), and stuck to the more game like nature of "regular" BDSM. He literally lived his regular life in hope to one day be able to express his "true" nature, the one of what we loosely now call D/s. That, of course, is one of the reasons why he finds it so hard now to get even close to it: reality never turns out to be just like the fantasy, not to mention the fact that one philosopher also warned that once we reach our fantasy, it instantly disapears as such and therefore loses its appeal. Cheerful stuff. One thing he often mentiones: when he feels subby (I think he once was on his way to maybe, sort of, kind of, a bit feel subby) he can't make any decisions, none, if he is even a bit uncertain what he has to do, and has to think for a second, he panics (and sobs and sobs and sobs, as I found out). I love that, I have no problem with that. But if that is the level he has to be at all the time in order to feel subby, then real life is going to be a tough one on him. He seems to need all or nothing. Yay. How does he learn to compromise a bit, especially since this seems to be some deep drive that he has no control over? I think most of you cleverly pointed out, in a polite way, that the problem is in me, as much as it is in him. Which I agree with completely. Due to the enormity of the situation in my eyes, and how seriously I take this stuff, I subconsciously decided it is very hard to do. On top of that, I am on his territory: I have recently split up from my husband, moved to another country (my new partner's), and even though his country is right next door to the country I original come from (therefore I don't feel completely like fish out of water) this is still his stomping ground: I don't even speak his language. These are not big things, but it does get in the way a bit, when I have to learn from him how to buy bus tickets, where to buy good vegetables etc... I have recently halted the dynamic, I was feeling I was rapidly losing control in it, and therefore decided to stop the fake play rather than allow it to become completely meaningless. This will give me time to think, re-group, re-start. This resulted in a lot of tears from him (the little manipulative brat, um, whom I love very much, heh) yet it feels good to have had one decision seen through without the "we" factor that Tanos mentioned. Something that I shall most definitely start doing all the time now. I mixed up the concept of open communication with allowing him to make equal amounts of decisions. Ugh. So the consensus so far seems to be no "breaking" is to take place? I was thinking about doing a symbolic one (as in, a one day long "scene" including sensory deprivation, pain, not knowing when/if it is going to end etc etc)? Since the control issue seems to be a paradox: if I start with little things to control, then he feels like it is the vanilla him doing it, I have failed so far to move on with these to more significant feelings...But if I don't do the control things, then we have almost nothing. I guess I am scared to try much now, since I can't bear to not see a response from him. Maybe that's my problem, I need to see that what I do has an impact, all these years of playing rested, for me, on making a mental change in someone, be it temporary or permanent...That was the whole poing of BDSM, having influence over someone's feelings at that moment. I find it really discouraging when I do something to someone, and see a blank. It is an odd feeling, I can't get my head around it: if feels like I am not controlling anything, like I am yelling in a void. But does it do something? Should I change my view on this? I keep feeling like he doesn't need a flippin' sensitive Mistress like me, that analyzes, worries, discusses...He instead needs a big bad hairy male Master to sit on him. Bleh. I mentioned this somewhere else once: the feeling of training a sub like him is like trying to teach a middle aged female cat to bark before she can get her afternoon tuna. I am stubborn, I shall see this through, even if it means throwing a glass against the wall in frustration when no one can see me (I am from the Balkans after all)...But it is soooo nice to get it off my chest and hear what others think about it, for some reason I always kept these things to myself (which seems to just result in a lot of broken glass)... One question though: What do you mean by making him do things he doesn't like? I assume this is to take away his feeling of deciding what constitutes our dynamic...If he keeps doing these things without feeling, does it count? Since we had something similar set up, and he did things automatically. It was like having a butler who didn't really like his job. Oh feck, I seem to have written another essay. 7 Jan 10, 1:17 PM bastets_daughter 2 yrs i find myself particularly touched by this thread. from a submissive point of view, i'd say it is highly reassuring that you are so concerned with your boy's happiness and welfare. I also relate to his frustration, and the impatient desire for everything to be perfect. Not tomorrow. Not next month. But right NOW.And i admit that i became a little bratty and disrespectul because of it. I was basically topping from the bottom, though im ashamed to admit it now. Underneath all my ambitions and wishful thinkings, what i really wanted was for my Master to decide what He wanted for Himself, and what he wanted from me. Maybe you need to gently remind him who is boss, by worrying about yourself and your needs for a little while? Deep down, what our Masters/Mistresses want is foremost in our needs. Even if he cant admit it, im sure thats what he wants. Forgive me for being so presumptious, i hope i've said something worth listening to. Be well - kitten 7 Jan 10, 2:48 PM Mona_Demarkov HR, 2 yrs 351-349-664 wrote: i find myself particularly touched by this thread. from a submissive point of view, i'd say it is highly reassuring that you are so concerned with your boy's happiness and welfare. Be well - kitten Awww, thank you for those warm thoughts, cheered me up a lot... 7 Jan 10, 3:04 PM Mona_Demarkov HR, 2 yrs Just a quick thought: Is it possible that he isn't submissive in the BDSM (with all the subgroups of it) sense? His main fantasy seems not to be to serve Mistress for the sake of that, it seems to be to be broken physically and mentaly into complete obedience by a much larger force than himself, and kept in that state by said force, and therefore, have NO CHOICE but to "serve Mistress". I know that a lot of subs long for a man/woman to have a "real" control over them, but I have never encountered someone with a need for this to be "real to the power of a 100". I think I need help from someone like Megatron. Edited 7 Jan 10, 3:05 PM by Mona_Demarkov 7 Jan 10, 5:21 PM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs It may well be that he isn't really submissive, but just has a fetishistic fantasy, and as you said, the reality isn't what he thought it was going to be. And you need to decide what that means for you. You also mentioned that when you start out with levels of control that you prefer, rather than running to his fantasy, that he feels like it's the "vanilla him" doing it. Yes. It is. And it's the "vanilla him" who is going to have to learn how to submit, or the "vanilla him" will continue to sabotage everything. The ideal is that there is no more "vanilla him", there is only a slave ... and you don't get there by putting him into an altered state of complete robotic submission and never letting him out, because that means that the sabotaging part is still there. You have to start with that problem part and transform it slowly. A slave's biggest job, and their best tool, is Attitude. They need to develop the ability to change their attitude at will, and find a way to get into a good attitude about doing things they don't like. The point is not to spare them from that. The point is to work with them until they can find ways to be OK with it. A job well done? The mistress pleased? The feeling of submission when you realize it isn't going your way, but hers? If these don't move him, he isn't really submissive. For that matter, I'm not hearing a lot from you about him wanting to please you and make you happy. I think you'll find that this is a basic key to the actually submissive personality. I would really raise my eyebrows if any of the subs/slaves on here claimed that they didn't fall with relative ease into a place of desperately wanting to please their owner. If this is not one of his main motivations, again it's a "tell" that he may not really be submissive. For the record, there are a lot of people out there who think the idea of submitting is hot but when push comes to shove, it's just a fetish and they aren't suited for it. First female "slave" I had was like that. It happens. They aren't lying, they just don't understand. I might suggest A) finding long-term actual slaves for him to talk to about his feelings, and B) having him read this thread. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 7 Jan 10, 7:04 PM De_Luxe UK, 3 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: A slave's biggest job, and their best tool, is Attitude. They need to develop the ability to change their attitude at will, and find a way to get into a good attitude about doing things they don't like. The point is not to spare them from that. The point is to work with them until they can find ways to be OK with it. A job well done? The mistress pleased? Raven, I agree completely with the above so does my boy. ravenkaldera wrote: The feeling of submission when you realize it isn't going your way, but hers? If these don't move him, he isn't really submissive. But my boy doesn't agree with you totally on the above, I'll have him post why. ravenkaldera wrote: I would really raise my eyebrows if any of the subs/slaves on here claimed that they didn't fall with relative ease into a place of desperately wanting to please their owner. If this is not one of his main motivations, again it's a "tell" that he may not really be submissive. He thinks you are spot on with this observation. To the OP, still thinking about your complex situation as more info comes to the fore. 7 Jan 10, 8:12 PM Owned_by_De_Luxe UK, 3 yrs De_Luxe wrote: ravenkaldera wrote: The feeling of submission when you realize it isn't going your way, but hers? If these don't move him, he isn't really submissive. But my boy doesn't agree with you totally on the above, I'll have him post why. I think I'd say that, although submissive, I'm probably not as submissive as some. For example, we've found that I don't get on at all when my lady wants a 'high protocol' evening: I go through with her wishes, of course, but find it very tough going and (internally at least) can become rather irritated with it. And I don't look back upon such evenings with fondness at all. This is my first non-vanilla relationship, and I'm finding the reality rather different to my expectations, and I'm still trying to come to terms with exactly how I feel about all this. I'm certainly very keen to keep a decent degree of autonomy in my life, and would absolutely hate it if I weren't able to make a certain amount of decisions for myself. Next page