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	TSR : Web boards : O&P : "Responsibility in O&P" Responsibility in O&P (5) This post is on the O&P web board. Mon 16 Nov 09, 11:49 PM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! The O&P Manifesto tries to strike a balance between the power acquired by dominants and the responsibility they must possess. I've made a deliberate attempt here to provoke more discussion about more "hardline" types of D/s (along with M/s) where the submissive is there for the dominant's agenda in an unequal relationship. The concepts already discussed which embody desirable (or essential!) qualities of competent dominants in O&P, of dignity, authenticity, consent, and respect are there to provide necessary counterweights to that power. Responsibility is the most important of these within this kind of relationship. In fact, I believe that almost all competent dominants enjoy responsibility anyway, since it's intrinsically connected to power and authority, and being the one who makes the ultimate decisions and deals with the consequences. However, the sense of responsibility that is a requirement in O&P focuses on the needs that the submissive has, since needs cannot be left unaddressed over time, by the definition of "needs" themselves. The cold, hard justification is that with all property, if it is not looked after over time, the ability to use or own it is lost. But in practice, I would include all sorts of things in "needs", including social contact and even the kind of purposefulness provided by a career in some cases. Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Dignity. Authenticity. Structure. Rituals. 17 Nov 09, 2:54 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs I was the oldest child of continually ill parents, so I grew up with a great deal of responsibility. That in and of itself was not a bad thing. I like feeling competent, I like to be in control and know what's going on, I like being in a position to change things if they go wrong. When I was younger, I would attempt to fill any power vacuum that existed around me; now I have learned that not all responsibility is mine to take. I've got enough, thanks. I was just dealing with the repercussions of a discussion on slave needs on another forum, oddly enough. (These things run in cycles. Must be astrological.) I agree that slaves have needs, and if they are not fulfilled, the slave begins to malfunction. However, what is and is not a need can be ...well, not something that the slave is actually aware of themselves. What I mean by that is that it's not uncommon for the slave to *believe* that they desperately need chocolate chip cookies to survive (to use a deliberately ridiculous example) when they don't, really. The master who attempts to stop them eating chocolate chip cookies will go through a period of great difficulty before the slave finally realizes that they can live without the cookies just fine. This means that the master has to continually gamble and take terrible risks: Is that a want, or a need? Can I trust my slave to be 100% realistic about the difference, or will they sometimes be wrong and I'll have to use my judgment even when they disagree vehemently? What if I use my judgment and get it wrong and take away an actual need? Will I damage them or their trust irreparably? It's a tough call. I've often said that the most humble thing that a slave can say isn't "I am a worthless worm!" but "Master/Mistress, I'll always give you as much honesty as I can, but I know that sometimes I don't always know myself very well, and sometimes I'm going to be wrong about my own needs and desires and thoughts, and I'm trusting you, Sir/Ma'am, to figure that out and stop me even when I think you're wrong." The owner's response to that needs to have its own humility and lack of hubris as well. It's an immense responsibility, always bigger than we thought it would be in the beginning. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. Edited 17 Nov 09, 2:55 AM by ravenkaldera 17 Nov 09, 1:56 PM AnathemaMaster US(IL), 3 yrs Y! ravenkaldera wrote: What if I use my judgment and get it wrong and take away an actual need? Will I damage them or their trust irreparably? It's a tough call. ... The owner's response to that needs to have its own humility and lack of hubris as well. It's an immense responsibility, always bigger than we thought it would be in the beginning. -Raven Kaldera Yup. But note, you assume correctly, I think, both clarity and experience as bridges between responsibility <-> risk. The risk never diminishes, for which we are actually grateful, as that is part of the stimulus of the responsibility. The actual responsibility becomes less difficult with aging. (I despise this word as implying a diminished power rather than a more refined power which is often the case.) We either learn from experience, enriching the lives of both master/mistress and slave, or we continue to piss into the wind. And hubris is the attendant curse of dominants who must always watch ourselves watching. I find myself repeating to my slave: ONE of us MUST be an adult, always. Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. Tacitus 17 Nov 09, 2:33 PM SnowDancer NO, 2 yrs Responsibility can be a tough term. Even though I am the second child in my family, I was usually the one babysitting my younger brother because my older brother was "too busy" elsewhere. I guess I should mention that my father is a natural dominant. To the point where I'm Still struggling with thinking what I want because throughout the entire childhood he'd give you the illusion that he knew what you were thinking. I could try to force myself to think about for instance sex, and my mind would just turn up white, I couldn't even think about it. Dad was brought up in an abusive household where their parents were either out sailing or home drinking. The kids took all the responsibility, and dad in particular. His older brother was weak while my father would stand up to my grandfather. Yeah, he got kicked around alot. With his past in mind, he had all odds of becoming an abuser himself, but instead dad took the concious responsibility of never touching his family in rage. And to this day he has never hit anyone of us. As any parent he wants only the best for their kids. He wants them to live up to their full potentional. None in my family ever went to university, and after a couple of glasses he'd usually tell me that with my mind, I could get somewhere. I could invest a couple years in education and live safely for the rest of my life. At the moment I am investing a couple years in a scientific education for future financial security. Even though most of my friends wanted me to get into arts and crafts. I think responsibility is a very difficult term. Not to mention exhausting. To me, when you're responsible you take what others think into consideration. Because you are responsible for their well being and relationship with you. If I got into an abusive relationship, and didn't get the hell out as soon as I knew, my father would never forgive me. He'd also never forgive me if I wasted my gifts and became a bum. He'd toss my sorry ass instantly out of his house if I ever started on drugs. And there's a long list of other "what if" actions that have dire consequences regarding his trust and my future reltionship with him. When he's being upfront and honest about these things, to me. He gives me the responsibility. Because I know what will happen if I do anything like that. In knowing the consequences, I can blame noone but myself. And thus all the responsibility is on me. I guess that is my wall of text thoughts about responsibility. Even though my father is not my dominant in any way, he still is a dominant, and I have an emotional tie to him as his daughter. I think that responsibility in it's essence is taking action, be it good or bad, with a pretty good knowledge of the outcome. If you don't know the most likly/possible outcome of your actions, you're not being responsible. 20 Nov 09, 2:05 PM masterfiremaam US(WV), 5 yrs Much like Raven, We were the super-responsible child. We were always put "in charge" while the grown-ups were away and We almost always got along with Our parent's generation than Our own. We think that each of us has just the unique background needed in order to succeed at these kinds of relationships. In reading what you had to say, Tanos, We found Ourself saying, "...and...?" meaning, the concept of responsibility in these relationships is so basic to us that it almost feels that it should be obvious. We, as Masters, simply cannot succeed without being willing to be responsible. This doesn't mean that the slave has no responsibility, however, just a different kind. Master Fire **The power of who we are can be intoxicating.** **The power of who we could be is humbling.** **Yet, we are assured we are exactly as we should be.** 9 Dec 09, 10:52 PM XXslaveXchristineXX US(NY), 2 yrs Tanos wrote: Responsibility in O&P The O&P Manifesto tries to strike a balance between the power acquired by dominants and the responsibility they must possess. I've made a deliberate attempt here to provoke more discussion about more "hardline" types of D/s (along with M/s) where the submissive is there for the dominant's agenda in an unequal relationship. The concepts already discussed which embody desirable (or essential!) qualities of competent dominants in O&P, of dignity, authenticity, consent, and respect are there to provide necessary counterweights to that power. Responsibility is the most important of these within this kind of relationship. In fact, I believe that almost all competent dominants enjoy responsibility anyway, since it's intrinsically connected to power and authority, and being the one who makes the ultimate decisions and deals with the consequences. However, the sense of responsibility that is a requirement in O&P focuses on the needs that the submissive has, since needs cannot be left unaddressed over time, by the definition of "needs" themselves. The cold, hard justification is that with all property, if it is not looked after over time, the ability to use or own it is lost. But in practice, I would include all sorts of things in "needs", including social contact and even the kind of purposefulness provided by a career in some cases. Regards, Tanos Kuddos for writing the O&P Manifesto - well done. For the most part, we share similar understandings of these types of relaionships. "This is asymmetric and unequal in status. While the submissive is in the dominant's possession they are fundamentally there for the dominant." When referring to property, what we speak of is human property. As such, in being human, the fundamental purpose is defined within the self --- in and of being the best person possible and being responsible for that. It is not substituted by the purpose of another. Nor is the journey of one a substitute for the other. Each having their own journey in life, they choose to share a path together - not one person's path. Fundamentally being there for the dominant should not lead to the disollution of the self (being absorbed into another) - unhealthy. I disagree that it is an asymetrical relationship. Rather, it is a symbiotic one. Also, it is the authority that is unequal, not the status. Both are of equal in their humanity, value, and in their deserving of respect. RE counterweights to power -- I see the responsibility of a Master to be inherently tied to the accepting of service and authority. I think you were spot on with it being an essential component - certainly more than desirable, in my view. In fact, much of what you listed in the Manifesto are requirements of both the Master and slave - dignity, authenticity, consent, respect. Best wishes on your journey, ~slave christine