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	TSR : Web boards : O&P : "Dignity in O&P" 1 2 Dignity in O&P (13) This post is on the O&P web board. Fri 30 Oct 09, 1:59 AM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Dignity is not a very fashionable concept now. You might be thinking it's a stuffy word or even pompous. But its use in the O&P Manifesto is about self-respect and having personal standards, rather than about self-importance. I think it would be hard to find another word that breaks down into as many worthwhile virtues as "dignity". Some people have used "honour", but that's even more ambiguous with some of its negative associations including self-importance or a tender pride that must be defended. O&P uses dignity, and the need to avoid undignified behaviour, as guiding principles for owners and dominants to promote the stability and proper functioning of the household and its interactions with people outside. Maintaining dignity requires the avoidance of lying, cheating, lack of effort, or breaking one's word. It also means not compromising on one's own freedom, including making oneself dependent on others because of lack of self-discipline, and not compromising one's self in the face of resistance from submissives and social pressures from outside the household. In short, it is beneath an owner or dominant's dignity to engage in unworthy behaviour. These are high standards to strive for, but how do you see these concepts in relation to D/s and M/s? Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Dignity. Authenticity. Structure. Rituals. Edited Fri 30 Oct 09, 8:51 AM by Tanos 30 Oct 09, 4:21 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs (grin) Perhaps we have a definitional conflict, albeit a mild one. To me, honor is about having a strong code based on principles that are more than just self-serving, and holding to it even when it is inconvenient or painful. One psychologist who didn't think much of honor described it snarkily as "having one's self-worth invested in seeing one's self as someone who holds to their personal set of rules." Although she meant to belittle it, I think that's actually right on. I just don't see it as a bad thing. Dignity, while a good thing, has connotations to me of someone who isn't so much about the moral force of the code as the form, and who may be unduly invested in the general social opinion of themselves and their actions. However, that definitional difficulty aside, I can basically agree with you. Some years ago, when I was writing about service and looking for examples throughout the ages, I ran across a booklet written by a reenactor for a Renaissance fair, full of tips to help would-be reenactors to actually understand the mores of that day, rather than parodying some Truncheons and Flagons fantasy world. The chapter on what was expected of a proper servant was wonderful (apparently getting modern people to authentically impersonate servants is a problem). The best line in there was an example: "If you are a lady's serving maid and the two of you are at the market, it is beneath her dignity to carry the basket, and it is beneath your dignity to let her." -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 30 Oct 09, 6:34 AM Malkinius US(IL), 5 yrs Greetings Tanos.... Those are some interesting points and a very interesting question you pose. I do have to agree with Raven tho about honor. An honorable man is one who keeps to his ethics and morals no matter what. We may not like or agree with someone else's ethics or morals, but if they have such things defined and keep to them, then they are honorable. Think of all the honorable villains in books and movies. <grins> Now, as to your question about dignity in D/s and M/s. I think it, like honor, has absolutely nothing to do with them. I think they both have something to do with the people who practice D/s, M/s, Op or whatever initials you want to use. It is about people, nothing more. You do not have to have dignity or honor to be involved in any of those things. You do not have to be involved in any of those things to have dignity or honor. We may like to have them or think we have them, but that desire is still not connected to what we speak of here. Be well.... Malkinius 30 Oct 09, 8:46 AM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! ravenkaldera wrote: (grin) Perhaps we have a definitional conflict, albeit a mild one. To me, honor is about having a strong code based on principles that are more than just self-serving, and holding to it even when it is inconvenient or painful. Yes I've edited the OP to make it more clear I meant some of the bad associations of "honour", but that there are plenty of others. I'm thinking of the kind of honour that is only ever offended or shamed (as in "honour killings" etc), and never compels people towards responsible behaviour. Dignity, while a good thing, has connotations to me of someone who isn't so much about the moral force of the code as the form, and who may be unduly invested in the general social opinion of themselves and their actions. Yeah Choosing the right word for this is like stuffing a duvet in a suitcase: whatever way you do it, there's some bit sticking left out that you don't want. But I suppose tactically, honour has been fought over so much in some D/s places (in particular by angry guys in fantasy chatrooms!) and talked about and defined in Leather circles, that I want to try pinning down the concept in O&P with a new word. Doesn't modern heathenry use dignity in a similar way too? The best line in there was an example: "If you are a lady's serving maid and the two of you are at the market, it is beneath her dignity to carry the basket, and it is beneath your dignity to let her." I rather like that example - my implicit Victorianism showing through. When you read that nowadays and imagine being in a shopping mall, isn't it interesting that dignity prompts you to defy current social convention, and remember who is there to make who's life easier? This is especially true for M/f people, where there are some strong negative stereotypes of men that people want to avoid (eg abuser, slob, lazy etc.) Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Dignity. Authenticity. Structure. Rituals. 30 Oct 09, 8:48 AM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Malkinius wrote: I think they both have something to do with the people who practice D/s, M/s, Op or whatever initials you want to use. It is about people, nothing more. You do not have to have dignity or honor to be involved in any of those things. You do not have to be involved in any of those things to have dignity or honor. We may like to have them or think we have them, but that desire is still not connected to what we speak of here. The thing is, with O&P I'm not just interested in doing D/s or M/s. I'm interested in doing them well. Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Dignity. Authenticity. Structure. Rituals. 30 Oct 09, 2:04 PM De_Luxe UK, 3 yrs I would say I fail to have dignity or have regard for it if I view my sub/slave as merely a means to an end, the end being simply making my life better, and conducted myself in a way that had lack of regard for his or her welfare. ETA There's a fairly broad swathe of Victorianism in me that dictates that it would be grossly disregarding my property's welfare if I did not allow him the pleasure of serving me in public by carrying the shopping basket! Something about sticking to my moral compass tells me that I need to let him be because I value who he is and how expresses himself. Rather than seeing myself defying Society's conventions I just feel they are at times so adrift from mine that they often cannot be applied. I am strange in a nice way, honest. Edited 30 Oct 09, 3:02 PM by De_Luxe 31 Oct 09, 12:13 AM Malkinius US(IL), 5 yrs Greetings Tanos.... Tanos wrote: The thing is, with O&P I'm not just interested in doing D/s or M/s. I'm interested in doing them well. Regards, Tanos No. I disagree completely with your statement. You are not interested in doing D/s or M/s well in the slightest. From everything I have read of yours, you are interested in doing whatever you do well. Be well.... Malkinius 31 Oct 09, 9:54 AM Sklavos_mou_Kyriah 3 yrs Domme_deluxe wrote: I would say I fail to have dignity or have regard for it if I view my sub/slave as merely a means to an end, the end being simply making my life better, and conducted myself in a way that had lack of regard for his or her welfare. This is My Lady's precise view. Her slave I am but that should not compromise (my) humanity. Domme_deluxe wrote: ETA There's a fairly broad swathe of Victorianism in me that dictates that it would be grossly disregarding my property's welfare if I did not allow him the pleasure of serving me in public by carrying the shopping basket! Something about sticking to my moral compass tells me that I need to let him be because I value who he is and how expresses himself. Sometimes I have to remind My Lady with something along the lines of "Why have a dog and bark yourself?" when she forgets to pass the shopping etc. to me. Conversely she tends not to overload me by reminding me, "Slave must not be damaged". My point regarding dignity is, - and forgive me for not being able to couch this in more academic terms, - is I wear my collar with pride and thereby have dignity. To remove it would be totally humiliating. It would be tantamount to telling me I am no longer worthy to be Her slave. Likewise, dignity can be removed by denying a slave opportunities to serve. To be a true slave is to be truly free Sklavos 31 Oct 09, 12:24 PM De_Luxe UK, 3 yrs Sklavos_mou_Kyriah wrote: Domme_deluxe wrote: I would say I fail to have dignity or have regard for it if I view my sub/slave as merely a means to an end, the end being simply making my life better, and conducted myself in a way that had lack of regard for his or her welfare. This is My Lady's precise view. Her slave I am but that should not compromise (my) humanity. Domme_deluxe wrote: ETA There's a fairly broad swathe of Victorianism in me that dictates that it would be grossly disregarding my property's welfare if I did not allow him the pleasure of serving me in public by carrying the shopping basket! Something about sticking to my moral compass tells me that I need to let him be because I value who he is and how expresses himself. Sometimes I have to remind My Lady with something along the lines of "Why have a dog and bark yourself?" when she forgets to pass the shopping etc. to me. Conversely she tends not to overload me by reminding me, "Slave must not be damaged". My point regarding dignity is, - and forgive me for not being able to couch this in more academic terms, - is I wear my collar with pride and thereby have dignity. To remove it would be totally humiliating. It would be tantamount to telling me I am no longer worthy to be Her slave. Likewise, dignity can be removed by denying a slave opportunities to serve. Sklavos, I'm sure your Lady appreciates your fine attitude. I know exactly what you mean about something along the lines of 'dogs and barking' which I sometimes get from my boy also. Likewise I have to remind him not to overload himself in his enthusiasm. I like your strapline "To be a true slave is to be truly free" I think it holds for whichever side of the / we are on. 1 Nov 09, 3:53 AM SirJames1959 UK, 2 yrs Y! I can use the word "dignity", you can use it too. However, we can (in all probability do) have vastly different interpretations of what the word "dignity" means. To make things worse, to each of us, the definition of the word changes depending on the context within which it is being used. That's the problem with definitions, they are very personal and can change depending on the circumstances in which the word is used. Slave 391-682-776 belongs to me, I am totally responsible for her well-being 1 Nov 09, 1:01 PM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! SonicAttack wrote: That's the problem with definitions, they are very personal and can change depending on the circumstances in which the word is used. That's short circuited by saying Dignity in the context of O&P though. Rather like "power" means lots of things: but if I say "power in the context of electricity generation" or "power in the context of the world's navies" you know what it's about. That's the advantage of using a framework like O&P as a basis for discussion, with a bit more definition behind it than a name like, say, "D/s". Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk O&P: Possession. Ownership. Consent. Responsibility. Respect. House. Dignity. Authenticity. Structure. Rituals. Edited 1 Nov 09, 1:03 PM by Tanos Next page