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	TSR : Web boards : O&P : "Consent in O&P" 1 2 3 Consent in O&P (25) This post is on the O&P web board. 26 Oct 09, 8:26 AM Malkinius US(IL), 5 yrs Greetings.... 650-736-585 wrote: <snip> At the end, the whole thing leaves me with a question: To whom do I belong after all? To myself? To the "State"? To God? If I'm not master of my own, how can I "give" myself to someone else (even as a submissive)? <snip> Just an aside of sorts but there is an old saying that it is illegal to attempt suicide because it is illegal to destroy government property. <grins> That pretty much answers your question, at least from a government's point of view. Be well.... Malkinius 26 Oct 09, 1:54 PM Skruddgemire US(MD), 3 yrs 650-736-585 wrote: At the end, the whole thing leaves me with a question: To whom do I belong after all? To myself? To the "State"? To God? If I'm not master of my own, how can I "give" myself to someone else (even as a submissive)? In the end, God gave us free will. We are given the right to chose the path of light or the path of darkness with all the rewards and consequences due us for those decisions. So in a real sense, we "own" ourselves on that issue. As for the State? While they can enforce laws on us, can tell us what we can or cannot do and when we can or cannot do...In the end the only thing we *have* to do is die. They can arrest us, but we can choose to try and find a way to escape. They can kill us if our crimes are heinous enough (or depending on the regime, at whim) but in the end we are who we are. Not a goddamn thing in the universe can change that. In the event of a BDSM Relationship, a sub or a slave willingly gives up some of their personal power. But that is still a decision that the person made themselves. No master has ever gone to a person and said "You will be my slave!" and had anyone become their slave unless it was because the lifestyle appealed and the person made the decision right there and then to live that life. And there are many instances where the sub/slave made the decision to stop being one and reestablish their will and controls on their lives, sometimes going to the "other side of the ropes" as it were. We own ourselves. And through our self ownership we make the decisions on how that life is to be run. As it was said in the Sondheim Musical "Into the Woods"... And from out of the blue, And without any guide. You know what your decision is, Which is not to decide. So even the decision not to make decisions on your life and leaving it in the hands of another is as much a decision as any other. Damn I love a good topic like this. Kudos to the OP! 27 Oct 09, 12:55 AM De_Luxe UK, 3 yrs Skruddgemire wrote: We own ourselves. And through our self ownership we make the decisions on how that life is to be run. As it was said in the Sondheim Musical "Into the Woods"... And from out of the blue, And without any guide. You know what your decision is, Which is not to decide. So even the decision not to make decisions on your life and leaving it in the hands of another is as much a decision as any other. Damn I love a good topic like this. Kudos to the OP! I had a big turning point when the docs were saying I might have cancer. I was in my mid 30's. It made me think more about what really was important. I gave myself consent to be Me and less of what 'everyone' else said I should be. 29 Oct 09, 10:49 AM GypsieCowboy US(NM), 2 yrs Y! In the Commonwealth of Virginia once you are convicted of any crime and sentenced to jail or prison - the Commonwealth owns you and you are nothing but property. therefore 1- they do not have to provide health care and if you are seriously ill they in fact do not do so. 2- they do not have to allow you to practice your religion and in fact only allow those religions which are followed by so many inmates that the prisons could not handle the uprising that would result were they to refuse to allow those to be followed... they include only muslim/islam and a handful of Christian sects. they do not allow Native American, Buddhist or Jewish, for example, inmates to practice according to their own religious laws. 3- if you want to be able to purchase toothpaste, shampoo, etc you must earn money to do so... or have outside income from family or friends ... in order to work you have to be very very lucky, there are few paying jobs and they earn a grand total of 13 cents per hour! and the items sold at the commissary cost at least 20% higher than on the outside. 4- if you were an inmate and you were to die in custody (which occurs on a very regular basis) your body and belongings are property and your immediate family cannot see your dead body, cannot get medical reports, cannot get any of your property without a court order and above all, if they want to bury your body they have to buy it from the Commonwealth, from the Dept of Corrections... AND they must prove to the D.O.C. that they will dispose of the body in a way that is agreeable to the D.O.C. GypsieCowboy speaking from personal experience I would spread the cloths under your feet: I, being poor, have only My dreams; I have spread My dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on My dreams. (Yeats) I worship you with punishments, exalt you by training you. Seek perfection? Look for yourSelf in My eyes. GypsieCowboy 30 Oct 09, 6:26 PM Skruddgemire US(MD), 3 yrs GypsieCowboy wrote: In the Commonwealth of Virginia once you are convicted of any crime and sentenced to jail or prison - the Commonwealth owns you and you are nothing but property. No, they want you to think that. It's part and parcel with the whole break your spirit so you learn that Prison is a hellish place that you never want to go back to again. They do not "own" you. They may act as if they do, they may have control of your actions, but they cannot control your mind and that's where you are still your own person. therefore 1- they do not have to provide health care and if you are seriously ill they in fact do not do so. Neither did several of my previous employers. They didn't own me. 2- they do not have to allow you to practice your religion and in fact only allow those religions which are followed by so many inmates that the prisons could not handle the uprising that would result were they to refuse to allow those to be followed... they include only muslim/islam and a handful of Christian sects. they do not allow Native American, Buddhist or Jewish, for example, inmates to practice according to their own religious laws. How can they stop you from praying to the Great Spirit, The Lord and Lady, Osiris, or whomever one wishes to pray to in the quiet recesses of the mind? How can they stop the Divine Spirit in whatever form it chooses to manifest itself to you from hearing that which is in your heart? As a Wiccan who found himself living with his in-laws for a while, I had to do all my rituals in my head and in my heart. They were no less meaningful than when I had my altar unpacked, set up, and the circle cast. Again, it's all how they want you to think so they can control one. 3- if you want to be able to purchase toothpaste, shampoo, etc you must earn money to do so... or have outside income from family or friends ... in order to work you have to be very very lucky, there are few paying jobs and they earn a grand total of 13 cents per hour! and the items sold at the commissary cost at least 20% higher than on the outside. More control. They want you to not have the luxuries or to have to work so hard for them that you're grateful for the tiny morsel of Chocolate you worked your ass off to the bone for. 4- if you were an inmate and you were to die in custody (which occurs on a very regular basis) your body and belongings are property and your immediate family cannot see your dead body, cannot get medical reports, cannot get any of your property without a court order and above all, if they want to bury your body they have to buy it from the Commonwealth, from the Dept of Corrections... AND they must prove to the D.O.C. that they will dispose of the body in a way that is agreeable to the D.O.C. But when you die, depending on your belief structure your body ends and that's game over and you are beyond caring as to what happens to your body, or your spirit moves to another place and again you're beyond caring about what happens to that chunk of worm food that used to be your body. If you believe in a soul and say for the sake of argument that you either were innocent of the crime that put you in jail or that you properly atoned for your sins (confession, last rites, etc), once you die you are free from the prison and can move on to the afterlife and will forever be beyond the unfeeling nature of prisons like that. In prison, one still have choices. Limited they may be, but one has them. One can choose to follow the rules, be a model prisoner and be released (if the sentence allows for that). One can also choose to fight the system and not allow them to break one's spirit and be released and then commit another crime. One can make a choice to incite a riot, to stab another inmate, to stab a guard, to offer to help and become a trustee, to get a job, to take advantage of learning if it is offered at that prison... There are still choices and the only one that can make them is the person in question. Even if the choice to give it all up and fall into despair, it's still a choice. No one can own a person but that person. 20 Nov 09, 12:30 PM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs First I would like to thank Tanos for his very insightful and informative postings under the general topic of O&P, they have been very helpful. I share his opinion that "O&P must be entered with the freely given informed consent of the submissive." My ideas on consent were turned topsy turvy earlier this week when an incident came to my attention. On Monday, a Dom, a declared sadist, met for a session with a submissive with self-proclaimed masochistic preferences and a documented mental health history that included self harm (cutting). The sub's mental health history and specifically her self harm behaviour were extensively discussed prior to the session being conducted and consent for the activities to be participated in during the session was provided by the submissive. Following the session, the Dom gave excellent aftercare as was his practice. Following which, both Dom and sub parted ways. The next day, the sub began her self harm behaviours and ended up in hospital in what appeared to be an attempted suicide. During treatment, bruising from the session with the Dom was noted (as well as older bruising from an unknown source) and the cause of the all injuries were discussed with the patient. Despite her declaration that the activitiy was consentual, the police were contacted and an investigation was conducted. The Dom was interviewed (for over 5 hours) and subsequently charged with Assault causing bodily harm and Sexual Assault under the Criminal Code of Canada. Given that the sub had provided her consent, I was intigued by the logic of the investigating police officer in laying these charges. I conducted a brief legal reference search, as the police officer would have been required to do prior laying charges. What I found was most eye opening. Two legal cases were of particular interest regarding the topic of consent. R v Welsh from the Ontario Court of Appeal and R v Hancock from the British Columbia Supreme Court. R v Welsh is interesting as it provides a survey of case law from Canada, Britian and the United States. R v Hancock is interesting as it noted the well documented written consent of the victim to participate in sad-masochistic actvities. In both cases the Justices determined that a person cannot consent to any activity that would lead to grievous bodily harm of said person (or more specifically, consent to any activity that would be deemed criminal under the law). Their reasoning was pretty consistant in both cases. So, back to Tanos' opening statement regarding informed consent of the submissive, it appears that we can only consent so far as the law will permit us. And as Tanos noted in the last parapraph of his post, that regardless of our consent (informed or otherwise), we may face the legal sanctions of our respective criminal justice systems for our sado-masochistic activites. So, the question I have is how do we protect ourselves from this type of legal sanctioning, particularly when we are fully consenting adults to any and all activities we might participate in. Just a note, the Dom will be in court in January 2010 for his first appearance. And, anyone wanting to review the noted legal cases for themselves, may do so at www.CanLII.org in conducting your search use the search term "sado-masochistic". Welch will be second and Hancock will be seventh in list of cases provided. With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair Edited 13 Aug 11, 3:23 PM by pet_ka_MJ 29 Jan 10, 3:44 AM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs An update to the sad tale of Sir John, a Dom and his consenting sub. Sir John appeared in court on Tuesday last. All charges were stayed (stay of proceedings) as there was a question pertaining to the credibility of the victim. It never looks good to charge the victim of a crime with contempt of court for being a hostile witness. So while he has been able to avoid criminal prosecution for his consentual activites, the rest of his life did not fair as well. Once charges were filed against Sir John, his employer terminated his contract as he could no longer maintain a clear criminal record. Further, it seems that Immigration Canada has taken an interest in Sir John. Sir John has lived in Canada for over 20 years and has been a productive landed immigrant of our country, but this is not good enough and Sir John is now facing a pending deportation order. While we may develop our own guidelines and definitions of what constitutes consent within a M/s or D/s relationship, they are not always shared by external agencies and when they are not, our lives can and are adversely impacted. With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair Edited 29 Jan 10, 4:02 AM by pet_ka_MJ 30 Jan 10, 3:20 AM 333-528-841 CA, 3 yrs Thank you for the update. I certainly hope he has good representation and can settle the matter with Immigration. As the charges were stayed, he has no record, although that does not help on the employment front. It amazes me as to the logic of Immigration sometimes, when consent has been given to hundreds of immigrants who have criminal records involving real violence in their native countries, to come to Canada and continue to stir up trouble. Instead, they zero in on someone who on any given day is probably the same as anyone from their own government department. 333-528-841 Life shouldn't be measured by the breaths you take; but by the moments that take your breath away 30 Jan 10, 5:36 AM pet_ka_MJ CA, 2 yrs 333-528-841 wrote: As the charges were stayed, he has no record, although that does not help on the employment front. He will always have a police record (just not for a criminal conviction). In Stay of Proceedings (SOPs)charges are not technially dropped and are held in abeyance, and therefore do not go away as Crown has right to re-institute charges within a set period of time. Also, as he was charged with a violent offense and a sexual offence, his file will remain open for 30 years (cannot be purged from system except with court order). Given the nature of the charges as well, his finger prints and DNA will remain on file as well. Whether convicted or not, he is now part of the sexual offender DNA registry and any hopes of returning to his profession are now gone. 333-528-841 wrote: It amazes me as to the logic of Immigration sometimes, when consent has been given to hundreds of immigrants who have criminal records involving real violence in their native countries, to come to Canada and continue to stir up trouble. Instead, they zero in on someone who on any given day is probably the same as anyone from their own government department. As he is now part of sexual offender DNA registry, this is the likely motivation for immigration. In my experience, immigration has way too much power and not enough monitoring or sense. Oh well, he is being back doored as I see it. If immigration drops their proceedings it is likely that Crown will proceed with theirs. Immigration's pursuit of Sir John has nothing to do with logic, in the end it all comes down to budgets and which government agency is going to pay the court costs... a provincial court verses federal immigration department. Ding... ding.... ding... and the winner is... immigation... and Sir John gets shafted either way. Unfortunately for Sir John, he will probably spend the next 5-10 years fighting that deportation order, accummulating huge legal costs as he does not qualify for any type of legal aid or assistance. Somedays, I just shake my head. Whoever said the criminal justice system was about justice (or that it had to be fair) must of been on crack. WTF eh! With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate, and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. - Keshavan Nair Edited 30 Jan 10, 5:41 AM by pet_ka_MJ 14 Aug 11, 11:35 AM cadance UK, 15 mths On reading through this thread i am relieved and feel fortunate to live within a legal system based on roman as opposed to codified or other law with the principle 'innocent until proven guilty.' most of the world does not adopt or operate this principle and commences at guilt with a requirement for the accused to prove their innocence. The ridiculous results can be seen in case law! It is not very often that i get sense of pride at being British these days but this thread brought home to me how ridiculous some of the laws other people have to endure actually are! In the UK, there has to be a 'victim' for an assault to have arisen. If the alleged victim does not want or agree to press charges whether this be because they consented (or a whole host of other potential reasons) then no crime exists. Obviously if the victim was unable to press charges eg a child, mental incapacity, coma or death - charges would be brought by police. Cases are logged in order to identify and offer protection to those that are genuinely being abused and do not press charges due to fear so i guess if a D regularly indulged in loud or public punishment of their S they would end up with a file somewhere to make entertaining reading but no criminal record. I experienced first hand how this works a while ago. During a 'vanilla' domestic argument when I tried to leave the house, i was grabbed by the wrists and restrained. By the time the police arrived the bruising had begun to appear so they repeatedly asked me to press charges. Knowing it had just been fraught situation with everyone very upset i refused so they could not take things any further. If they been able to disregard my wishes it would have escalated the problems! Thankfully we have not as yet, nor hopefully will we ever reach the 'nanny state' mentally that appears to exist elsehwere. Not being rude but not permitted to talk to masters-only y master may respond to them Next page