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	TSR : Web boards : Other Topics : "Natural order of things" 1 2 Natural order of things (12) Moved from Website help Mon 29 Jun 09, 11:10 PM BigCoolViking_Master UK, 20 mths Y! Glorious Submission Here is yet another little quote drawn from that great big book I've been reading. In his Old Testament Theology, Bruce Waltke is careful to prove that gender roles and differences are rooted not in society and culture but in creation. He shows that, though men and women have been created equal, man was designed to take the leadership role in family and in the church. This is not a result of the ancient fall into sin but a part of the origional created order. This brief quote stood out to me as an example of godly submission and one that is, of course, exceedingly counter-cultural. Here we see submission not as suffering but as a glorious and meaningful expression of faith, and a deep sense of the traditional natural God given authority of being a man. BigCoolViking 29 Jun 09, 11:46 PM Kay_kay US(NY), 15 mths Welcome to SD. Interesting post. I/i do have a question though...is this more a personal statement for Yourself or is it a concept that You believe is universal? That the male's natural role is dominent and at the forefront? Just curious. 30 Jun 09, 12:52 AM 902-660-194 US(PA), 4 yrs im so lost here, you say you are looking for a sub, but you are registered here as slave (your number) 2 other things.. be careful, i was slammed by people for having the "opinion" that men are naturally dominate. second & i hope i do this right, im reporting this thread because it is in the wrong board & will get moved to the correct one (i hope lol) ~r~ the sting of His whip~ the welts from His crop~ the warmth of His kiss~ the click of the lock~ assures me i am His most cherished possession.. Edited 30 Jun 09, 12:54 AM by 902-660-194 30 Jun 09, 10:39 AM Ms_Valentine UK, 2 yrs 487-710-994 wrote: Natural order of things Glorious Submission Here is yet another little quote drawn from that great big book I've been reading. In his Old Testament Theology, Bruce Waltke is careful to prove that gender roles and differences are rooted not in society and culture but in creation. He shows that, though men and women have been created equal, man was designed to take the leadership role in family and in the church. This is not a result of the ancient fall into sin but a part of the origional created order. This brief quote stood out to me as an example of godly submission and one that is, of course, exceedingly counter-cultural. Here we see submission not as suffering but as a glorious and meaningful expression of faith, and a deep sense of the traditional natural God given authority of being a man. BigCoolViking This is all well and good if, firstly you believe in God and what is written in the Bible and secondly, you are a man born with dominant attitudes and character. I happen to be a woman born with a dominant character and my partner is , whilst not submissive to anyone else, certainly submissive to me. To us, religious based arguments for male dominance just do not make any sense and never will. Edited 30 Jun 09, 12:03 PM by Ms_Valentine 30 Jun 09, 11:19 AM Calliope US, 15 mths I have to agree with Ms. V. And even though I am a submissive woman with my Master in charge, in the general scheme of things I would much rather have a woman in charge if she were the right person for the job, than a man just because he's the man. That goes for the boardroom, the home, even the battlefield (I can think of several men who I would NOT want to depend on in the heat of battle!). Now don't get me wrong, a great man in charge is great - but if he's not right for the job, he shouldn't be the one in charge, just b/c he's got a penis. 30 Jun 09, 8:20 PM BigCoolViking_Master UK, 20 mths Y! Yes...I believe a man has God given authority over his wife and childred. It is certainly clearly stated in the Bible & I guess also other ancient books like Koran... 1 Jul 09, 1:15 PM Ms_Valentine UK, 2 yrs Bigcoolviking_Master wrote: Yes...I believe a man has God given authority over his wife and childred. It is certainly clearly stated in the Bible & I guess also other ancient books like Koran... Good for you, I am glad that you have your beliefs. I have mine and we will agree to respectfully differ on those, won't we? 2 Jul 09, 8:57 PM Sklavos_mou_Kyriah UK, 2 yrs BigCoolViking_Master wrote: Yes...I believe a man has God given authority over his wife and childred. It is certainly clearly stated in the Bible & I guess also other ancient books like Koran... Interesting point this. This view is expressed in the three Abrahanic religions, but the major Mediterranean religions and the societies that supported them in the era before the birth of Abrahanic faith,were primarily matriarchal rather than Patriarchal. Early Minoan and Mycaenian society was matriarchal and further supported by the practice of having a person's lineage defined via the female line. In rather more modern times, relative to your statement about female submissiveness being part of the "Natural Order", what of those of us males, myself included, who are more than happy to be submissive and to submit to dominant females? One other question here, is that it is obviously part of the natural order of things that males sire children and females give birth to them. Hardly a basis for automatic female submission per se, methinks. For, once the child is born and the mother is pre-occupied with the welfare of the child, then surely the male's responsibility is to serve the needs of mother and child. Who is the submissive then? To be a true slave is to be truly free Slave/Sklavos 4 Jul 09, 2:05 PM AnonMoos US, 3 yrs Sklavos -- Minoan culture was certainly much less patriarchal than later classical Greek culture, but to call it "matriarchal" would be a kind of an oversimplification, and evokes certain 19th-century theories which modern scholars almost unanimously reject, at least in their original absolute and categorical form... BigCoolViking_Master -- For some comments on gender-supremacist ideologies, see my old post of 28 Feb 08, 7:47 PM. Such theories may have very deep meaning in your own personal life, but that doesn't mean that they'll be well-received by people here as a prescription for general social reform... 4 Jul 09, 8:05 PM Sklavos_mou_Kyriah UK, 2 yrs In a sense I'd agree with you. To say the Minoans were out and out matriarcal as in the fabled Amazons would be inaccuarate. Certainly from my readings of Robert Graves researches the indications are very strongly in favour of a pro-matriarchal society. The issues are very complex. Military matters were undoubtedly a male preserve but some evidence suggests the political decision to go to war rested with society as a whole and it was the women who decided the men should fight. The background to the Trojan War points towards this where Agamemnon commanded the acheans but the real power in his kingdom rested with Klytemnestra. Now I'm not for one minute saying this is a definitive. It is all surmise and conjecture but makes fantastic material for historical debate. To be a true slave is to be truly free Sklavos 12 Jul 09, 5:53 PM BigCoolViking_Master UK, 20 mths Y! AnonMoos wrote: Sklavos -- Minoan culture was certainly much less patriarchal than later classical Greek culture, but to call it "matriarchal" would be a kind of an oversimplification, and evokes certain 19th-century theories which modern scholars almost unanimously reject, at least in their original absolute and categorical form... BigCoolViking_Master -- For some comments on gender-supremacist ideologies, see my old post of 28 Feb 08, 7:47 PM. Such theories may have very deep meaning in your own personal life, but that doesn't mean that they'll be well-received by people here as a prescription for general social reform... Thanks for your input however to label this as "supremacist ideologies" is in fact totally missing the point,so what is the point?? The point is that the natural order is stated very clearly indeed in the Bible in many references so.... It is the word of God! It is also reinforced by the Apostle St Paul, who stated, 'Do not let woman lead or teach men in the church let them remain silent, teach each other & the children, & respectfully go through their men to the leaders with any ideas or concerns (paraphrased) Whether you believe the Bible or the Torah is actually the 'word of God' is a matter between you and God personally or whatever you choose to call the Supreme Being/creator him/her. Many/most people nowadays don't believe in creation I do, but I dont really want to get into protracted discussion as to why. I reject darwinian evoulution, but accept 'adaptation of the species' I have spent my entire life seeking & questioning reading & researching & have a hard wrought unshakble personal faith. I would also remind you that all your legal systems & laws in the entire 'modern world' are based squarely on the 'British model' which is totally Biblical. Even the muslims accept a large portion of the Bible as far as the break off point, when Abraham had 2 sons one with his wife 'Isaac'and the other with his slave 'Eusu' The latter illegitimate son, became the father of the Arab races/nations and the former, Isaac, the father of all jews, called the 'royal house of David' Also another interesting theory that there is lot's of evidence for is that the two lost tribes of Isreal came and settled in ancient Britain around 5500 years ago & this would mean Brits are now all of jewish decent, There are numerous ancient Hebrew place names in England & Scotland that pre date all our current historical knowlage of people movements. Edited 12 Jul 09, 7:33 PM by BigCoolViking_Master Next page