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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "The IE side of slavery" The IE side of slavery (7) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Thu 25 Jun 09, 7:40 PM 922-378-727 US(VA), 3 yrs Y! this is an interesting subject, having had a rt Master who was also poly and married, i held myself back from offering the IE. Out of respect for Master and His 1st's relationship, and also as a safety measure for myself because i did not want to become too attached. i have to wonder now if that set the Master/slave relationship up to fail as it eventually did. Does true ownership and TPE have to include total IE as well? 25 Jun 09, 8:22 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs I don't know yet whether I think ownership and/or TPE can exist without IE - total or at least in process. But if the s-type believes IE to be a thing that can be withheld and does so, she/he is retaining personal power. By definition the relationship would not be one of TPE. (The property formerly known as Camille ) 25 Jun 09, 8:46 PM Ms_Valentine UK, 3 yrs Internal Enslavement as a concept is relatively recent one. I suspect that those who have been in M/s or TPE or ownership relationships for many years may not have had IE as a fully formed concept to utilise and yet still have been enslaved or completely controlled. I think IE is different to TPE which is also different to ownership. I do not own my sub paul but I fully expect that since I removed the last of his rights recently, that of the right to leave the relationship, a sense of his feeling internally enslaved may begin to develop. I have not yet done any specific work on making that happen but feel that as I did instigate the removal of his last freedom, I will have to work on this area myself. I personally do not think a submissive has to be 'owned' to feel IE as ownership is a concept which pertains to slavery and ownership subculture. IE can develop once a submissive has been stripped of all rights within a relationship and of course, do not have to be a slave for this to happen. 25 Jun 09, 9:32 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Ms_Valentine wrote: I personally do not think a submissive has to be 'owned' to feel IE as ownership is a concept which pertains to slavery and ownership subculture. IE can develop once a submissive has been stripped of all rights within a relationship and of course, do not have to be a slave for this to happen. This adds something important for me. Much of what's been said/written on the topic seems to (or actually does) hold IE as a thing of M/s only and it doesn't seem logical. I think M/s theory and community is valid enough but it's still a thing of human contrivance. To claim a natural psychological process the exclusive province of a single culture just doesn't make sense. As in, if it can be provoked via one ideology, why not also by another, particularly by those that are similar? Well, one would have to thrash out the details, but it's more likely than not. Another thing that doesn't make sense is why I didn't figure this out on my own. (rolls eyes) Thanks for the idea. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 25 Jun 09, 10:35 PM Ou_pais US, 5 yrs That's an interesting question. We started poly as well, and both of us were in other relationships when we met. For me, the IE started developing months before the TPE happened, and it was a constant battle to try to remain functional in my other relationship and fight down the IE. In retrospect, the TPE was probably only possible because the IE had already taken root. So, personally, no, i don't think i could have TPE without IE. But, people can and do have functioning D/s dynamics without TPE and without IE. Those relationships, like any relationships, last as long as they are worthwhile for those involved, which to me implies that while they may take slightly different types of work than my IE relationship, the people involved are not necessarily less committed or less likely to stay together for long periods of time. IE relationships can end too. In my opinion, it's the "holding back from becoming too attached"--the emotional withdrawing--that can doom a relationship to fail, more than not having IE. Perhaps i'm misreading, but those sound like two separate issues. The one would certainly contribute to the other, but it is possible to be emotionally invested and committed without IE. pais Edited 25 Jun 09, 10:38 PM by Ou_pais 25 Jun 09, 11:26 PM 922-378-727 US(VA), 3 yrs Y! Thanks A/all of Y/you so very much for the personal insight. It makes things a lot clearer to me. I have to add however, having read the posts and examining the situation i was in that it would seem that IE takes a different type of trust then TPE almost. Is that a correct assumption in Y/your opinion? Edited 25 Jun 09, 11:28 PM by 922-378-727 25 Jun 09, 11:32 PM thegildedlili 3 yrs Ms_Valentine wrote: I think IE is different to TPE which is also different to ownership. I do not own my sub paul but I fully expect that since I removed the last of his rights recently, that of the right to leave the relationship, a sense of his feeling internally enslaved may begin to develop. Apart from the fact that you are making the distinction, saying that you don't own him, I'm not really sure how your relationship with Paul differs from actual ownership in terms of the definition of ownership we use here on the boards. "Ownership is the enduring authority to control and use for one's own purposes that which is owned. In D/s and M/s, ownership amounts to a transfer of authority over the submissive or slave which is veto-less and inescapable, in contrast to other types of possession which may be limited in time or scope." I also don't really understand how you can be sure that Paul won't leave unless he is internally enslaved, whether you have taken that right away or not, since he physically can, whereas with IE, my understanding is that after it is properly established and maintained, it's not actually possible. It's probably semantics, but I *am* interested. i have no need, for such things, but to make you happy... Josh Pyke 26 Jun 09, 8:12 AM Ms_Valentine UK, 3 yrs thegildedlili wrote: Ms_Valentine wrote: I think IE is different to TPE which is also different to ownership. I do not own my sub paul but I fully expect that since I removed the last of his rights recently, that of the right to leave the relationship, a sense of his feeling internally enslaved may begin to develop. Apart from the fact that you are making the distinction, saying that you don't own him, I'm not really sure how your relationship with Paul differs from actual ownership in terms of the definition of ownership we use here on the boards. "Ownership is the enduring authority to control and use for one's own purposes that which is owned. In D/s and M/s, ownership amounts to a transfer of authority over the submissive or slave which is veto-less and inescapable, in contrast to other types of possession which may be limited in time or scope." I also don't really understand how you can be sure that Paul won't leave unless he is internally enslaved, whether you have taken that right away or not, since he physically can, whereas with IE, my understanding is that after it is properly established and maintained, it's not actually possible. It's probably semantics, but I *am* interested. You are correct when you say you cannot see how my relationship with paul differs from ownership. In many ways this is a point I have been making for years now. On a practical level, day to day there is nothing different at all. He acts, speaks, obeys and lives in a 24/7 much as a person who is enslaved or owned does apart from the bits pertaining to ownership itself. People often say it is all so similar you must own him. I don't. There is a big distinction for me. Ownership is something which the dominant must want to and seek to undertake, in full understanding of what it means to them to own a human being. I cannot and will never be able to relate to that concept. It is not right for me and so I have realised that much of what others have in 'ownership', I have and have had for many years in my possession of Paul's rights. There are difference between ownership and possession and this distinction has caused much upset here over the last few months. Just because what I do is similar to something others do under a particular name doesn't mean I should encapsulate my life by their terms and definitions. Ownership is not identical to possession and whilst differences exist, I choose possession. Going back to what you asked at the end, how can I be sure that p won't leave me? I am not sure at this point in time. I can't be entirely sure. Maybe at some point I will be but now, I am just hopeful that by removing his right to leave, he will internalise that rule and limit, the way he has done all my other ones over the years. He has been incredibly good at aligning himself with my wishes so far, is very very rarely disobedient, never to my knowledge actively and deliberately so. I don't think he can be deliberately disobedient. From what I gather, IE is not something which you just pronounce is in existence and the mere saying of it makes it happen. From what I understand, those involved in that area, say the process of enslavement can take months, more often years and is an organic, ongoing process. I am patient, I accept that these things take time and if it is right for him, it will happen. The way I see it is that if it does happen he will still be with me and I will be very happy and if it doesn't but we are still together, I will also be happy. If it doesn't develop, and he leaves me, then what we have was never meant to be. There is, as you say, no physical way I can stop him leaving me if he wishes. I have removed the last potential barrier to him being able to feel psychologically unable to leave me. If that is the way he starts to incline, I will encourage him but I cannot force IE to take him over. It is a process internal to him which I can encourage but I can do no more than that. I also understand that as paul and I exist in a romantic relationship as well as a dominant and submissive one, I may never know for sure if what holds paul to me is love more than IE. It is probably heresy for me to say so but if it is actually 'just' love, I will not mind if at the end of my life, I have had a loving, obedient sub by my side for that time. Ultimately how I had him and under what name it took place is not as important as the having of him.