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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Denied after care as part of punishment" 1 2 3 Denied after care as part of punishment (30) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 11 Jun 09, 4:11 AM Blissful_Deviant AU, 2 yrs Hey all, thanks for all the words of advice. I must say, this is sort of funny! This morning I woke up planning on writing something, and someone has said it for me! I was going to say: I understand where my Owner was coming from. The beating itself was not that severe, it was my mental state that I was concerned about. He has never lost control before and I know what caused him to be in that place, and I know that I will never push him like that again. On that note, my mental state was entirely my fault - I had forgotten to take my medication for several days, and was experiencing a severe crash. This is totally my responsibility - I'm not a child, he shouldn't have to remind me every morning and night to take my meds. Having sat down with him and spoken about it all, I can see what he was trying to achieve - and he has in fact achieved what he set out to do. There has been a major attitude shift on my part and I think this is beneficial. Sometimes he knows me better than myself - I had a sook to him that I was pushed to a certain point and was tempted to do certain things, but as he pointed out, I didn't do any of those things... I sat quietly, I recharged, I got better. As for the person who asked if a hug would make me feel better - yeah, actually, it did. There is no where in the world that I feel safer, more protected or valued, than in his arms. So no, I didn't get the apology - which is fine, I wasn't expecting one - but I did get that feeling of safety and security again. One of the big things I have taken from the postings on here has been the need to discuss this all calmly with Him and the need for trust. I think when I wrote the original post I was pissed off and in a "pity me" mood - it was a hard thing to go through but... I think that we will move forward from here and be better. Thanks for all the advice xox 11 Jun 09, 7:32 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs I'm generally careful about getting involved in discussions of a purely personal nature but I think this one has gone outside of those boundaries. 000-953-143 and Omerta 88, I believe you are promoting some very bad ideas. 000-953-143 wrote: If you are going to punish a dog you don't smack it with a news paper and then coddle it expecting it to learn what it did wrong. So personally, this slave does not understand everyone's enragement with the lack of after-care. People don't learn any different from animals. There have been tests done on humans and animals for positive and negative reinforcement. The positive reinforcement being after care and the negative reinforcement being punishment. They have proven if you were to do both for the same action it will lead to the behavior being repeated. You've left out some important details of this theory. There's a world of difference between a newspaper spanking and "He was deliberately focusing on hitting parts of my body that I am the most insecure about - my breasts, stomach, hips etc. Fair enough, he wanted to punish me. In my head, I was thinking "oh my god, he finds me as revolting as I find myself". He had a look of complete rage in his eyes, there was no familiarity at al, he wasn't himself." One is a specific, intentional and controlled response and the other is a violent expression of rage. Whether corporal punishment is acceptable with a thinking human being is debatable, but the theory behind effective punishment is pretty much agreed upon. Three things are required: an awareness of the wrongdoing, the unpleasant stimulus and when it's done, it's DONE. If it lacks any one of the three, it's abuse. Legally speaking, it's assault. And the OP's description bore none of these features. 000-953-143 wrote: The only after care this slave's Master would give this slave is tossing the first-aid-kit in this slave's general direction once He was done. This isn't because He doesn't care it is because He would want this slave to learn from the punishment. I worked for some years for a battered women's shelter. If I removed all reference to M/s in this statement, what is left is the "logic" of many of those victims (or more accurately, their abusers) I spoke to. Victims frequently take on responsibility for their abuser's wrongdoing. I don't believe that you or any person "needs" to be beaten to the point of physical injury in order to grasp a concept. With that in mind, whose "needs" are actually being served here? Omerta_88 wrote: atta girl. Thats My good little slave Substitute "wife" for slave and I've heard this sentiment many times as well. I haven't worked there in some years and I did not think I'd hear (read) it again. I will tell honestly it made me wince. 000-953-143 wrote: As for the loss of control this slave does not see where he has lost control at all. Read these parts, please. Blissful_Deviant wrote: 1. The choice of time. I was in a really bad mental state, and he admits that he lost control. AND He had a look of complete rage in his eyes, there was no familiarity at al, he wasn't himself." 000-953-143 wrote: you took yourself to the car and stayed home by yourself for days nor did you say you had to go to the hospital. If He did dump you on the street you couldn't have been that bad if you got home. this slave will not coddle you because by how you wrote your post it is obvious you know what you did was wrong and there is no reason for this slave to pity you when your are in the wrong. this slave feels you told your story one sided and shaded with the details that you wanted us to hear so "we would take your side" by making your Master look bad and that is wrong. you should respect Him more then that by sharing more of what he felt about it before looking for outside advice. Talk to him this is between you and Him not anyone on this board. Talk to Him or you will never trust Him again. The issue here is not whether the OP did something "wrong" enough to "deserve" this treatment - each person is responsible for his/her own behaviour so obviously she did not. It doesn't matter whether her partner did not break her legs or otherwise put her in need of medical care. And keeping such things secret is the strongest tool of any abuser. The loss of a victim's confidence in her own perceptions helps keep the cycle going - please don't ever tell a person who feels they may have been abused to keep silent. If you want more details, you can always ask. The significant point is that the OP's partner beat her in anger. That's a wrong thing no matter what the relationship and no one is responsible for his behaviour but himself. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) Edited 11 Jun 09, 7:34 AM by EvaMaria 11 Jun 09, 10:12 AM Kay_kay US(NY), 3 yrs Thank you Eva for such a well thought out and wonderful response. Whether a beating with no aftercare is normal for one person or not is not the issue of the op and never was. This is a master who ALWAYS gave aftercare before but did not give aftercare because he was ANGRY at the time he did this specific event. Also, 000-953-143, humans are not dogs (whatever role or lifestyle they wish to engage in) and can differentiate between aftercare and positive reinforcement. Aftercare is NOT positive reinforcement. Aftercare is Master saying it's ok now, you were bad, you were punished, you're good again. It is NEVER ok to punish IN ANGER. period. end of sentence. NEVER. Not for a Master, a boss, an owner, a parent. No one. And that, omerta88 and 000-953-143, is the point. This was not punishment as punishment is done in calmness and with focus. This was abuse as it was done in rage because even though the op is recanting much of the original post, she still states he was NOT in control of himself. If you are not in control of yourself, you have no business exerting control over anyone or anything else at that moment until you calm down, no matter who you are. Edited 11 Jun 09, 10:15 AM by Kay_kay 11 Jun 09, 10:46 PM MasterOmerta88 US(IA), 3 yrs Y! What I find funny is the amout of assumtion that is going on right now... You cant even begin to pretend to know how I treat My slave... Furthermore aftercare IS posative reinforcment... You dont punish your kid for smoking pot and then a minute later tell them, "It's ok, now that your punished it's a dropped issue." You ground them for how ever long (which might I add is prolonged negative reinforcment) then once you see they have changed their ways they SLOWLY start earning your trust back. Might I also add that the slave herself agreed with My pet. She was abused in no way... In her profile she includes interests in humiliation and spanking. Humiliation: which would fall under her Master hitting her in her most vunerable spots in her own mind. Making her feel humiliated to be in his presence. Spanking: she herself admitted that there was never a closed fist involved which would fall under spanking. (spanking does not only happen on the rear) She was ok enough to make it back home and needed no medical attention. (I can't think of a time when I was hit with a closed fist let alone an open hand that I needed to go to the hospital) she also admits that she was off her meds... So how do W/we know that the "emotionally traumatizing" exeriance wouldn't have been a normal experiance were she not emotionally compromised. In response to the post saying that I am an abuser.. I have never once punished My pet to the need of any medical aid (whether it be a bandage or anything even remotly that bad)and the fact that I very seldom NEED to punsish My pet and NEVER for the same infraction twice ought to say something. Might I also add the fact that abusers coddle. My aunt was in an abusive relationship so dont think I don't know what I'm talking about. Her husband would beat my cousin till he couldn't sit and give my aunt black eyes. Afterwards he would always come home with a gift for her and my cousin talking about, "I'm so sorry, it will never happen again... ect. Refer to the poem "HE Brought Me Flowers" I'm sorry to have ranted on but the personal attacks by people who have never talked to me or gotten to know me were a little offputting. All great things must first wear a horrible and monstrous mask to inscribe themselves on the hearts and minds of humanity 11 Jun 09, 10:57 PM Kay_kay US(NY), 3 yrs I/i don't remember personally attacking omerta88 in any way. I/i also don't remember stating anything about how you treat your slave unless you come under the heading of those that punish in anger. If you do come under that heading, well then it's still not a personal attack on you as it is a general category. As for the op...yes, she recanted much of what she originally said. However, as I/i stated before, even in the recantation, she still indicates that both she and the master agree he was not in control of himself during that punishment. As long as he was not in control of himself, he was not right in the punishment. I/i still say that if one is not in control of one's self, then one has not business exerting control over anyone or anything else. This is why one should not Dom or drive or parent when one is drunk or in a rage, etc. 12 Jun 09, 12:23 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs omerta88 wrote: What I find funny is the amout of assumtion that is going on right now... You cant even begin to pretend to know how I treat My slave... My comments were based on statements made, not assumptions. I quoted them clearly. I made no statement about you personally, nor did I call you an abuser - I told of the similarity between your statement, 000-953-143's statements and those of the abusers and victims I've spoken with. It's a fact and I stand by it. omerta88 wrote: Furthermore aftercare IS posative reinforcment... You dont punish your kid for smoking pot and then a minute later tell them, "It's ok, now that your punished it's a dropped issue." You ground them for how ever long (which might I add is prolonged negative reinforcment) then once you see they have changed their ways they SLOWLY start earning your trust back. I do agree that trust must be regained through actions, but surely you would not withhold affection for the duration? Still, we're speaking of corporal punishment here and it isn't the same. omerta88 wrote: Spanking: she herself admitted that there was never a closed fist involved which would fall under spanking. (spanking does not only happen on the rear) She was ok enough to make it back home and needed no medical attention. (I can't think of a time when I was hit with a closed fist let alone an open hand that I needed to go to the hospital) By this definition, C could "spank" my cheek and send me sprawling - it's a matter of degrees and semantics. But again, the point is NOT what he didn't do but what he did - he "punished" her in temper and while out of control. omerta88 wrote: she also admits that she was off her meds... So how do W/we know that the "emotionally traumatizing" exeriance wouldn't have been a normal experiance were she not emotionally compromised. The OP doesn't state the type of medication or the condition she's being treated for and I see nothing in her posts to warrant any assumption that her perceptive/communicative abilities are "compromised". Both she and her partner stated that he was out of control and no such statement was made about the OP. The trauma comes of being used by a loved and trusted person as something to vent their anger upon and the responsibility for the situation falls to the abuser, not the victim. I see no merit in this point. omerta88 wrote: I have never once punished My pet to the need of any medical aid (whether it be a bandage or anything even remotly that bad) 000-953-143 wrote: The only after care this slave's Master would give this slave is tossing the first-aid-kit in this slave's general direction once He was done. This isn't because He doesn't care it is because He would want this slave to learn from the punishment. omerta88 wrote: Might I also add the fact that abusers coddle. They do, and it's very effective toward confusing their victims. But that doesn't mean coddling can't have a place in healthy interactions. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 12 Jun 09, 2:32 AM 333-528-841 CA, 3 yrs I agree with the remarks made by EvaMaria and Kay kay. Also,in MHO, i do not think that you can compare using a newpaper on a dog, or a pot smoking teen with the situation of the OP. Hitting a dog with a newspaper is a part of training usually, not a punishment. If I got hit on the nose repeatedly with a newspaper, yes, I would probably change my behaviour, because that is what it is for , behaviour modification. I would never hit an animal in anger and would definitely report it if I saw anyone else doing so. Smoking pot is illegal and therefore I would expect punishment. I would think of the best punishment to fit the crime and not decide angry. It would not include ignoring the child for days. I am sure that Blissful Deviant has a consenual relationship with her owner, so yes, consent was given at some point that includes punishment,but not behaviour bordering on abuse. She also mentioned that her owner punished her in anger and told her that she "does not deserve aftercare". I have a problem with that. To leave someone for days as the OP has said, is just not right in my book and is not conducive to a loving or respectful relationship. On a different note, Blissful Deviant has now said she can see where her owner was coming from and sees it as somewhat funny. If something was done deserving of punishment, fine, but it was the way it was handed out. It was said that the post was written when she was pissed off. If so, it is days later and must have been an issue. I don't get it. I have seen and heard too many times, abused spouses agree after the fact and take the blame on themselves until the "next time". There are those here that read and answer posts as this is a caring community. Posting an incident on a public board in anger is also wrong and gives the perception of payback. I truly hope that the above is not the case. I wish the best to you both. 333-528-841 Edited 12 Jun 09, 2:41 AM by 333-528-841 12 Jun 09, 2:49 AM Blissful_Deviant AU, 2 yrs My my... I did not intend to start a fight with my first post! Whoops! Just wanted to clarify... Yes, I think the punishment was harsh - or rather, the aftermath was harsh - but like I said, I can now see where my Owner was coming from. I feel safe and trust that he will not react like that again. He has always been very caring and gentle, and this was the first [and hopefully only] time he has denied aftercare. I don't want him demonized - I feel very lucky to have him in my life. Sometimes he can be harsh - but sometimes... Wow, let me tell you, it is incredible that I am owned after some of the things that I have done. The thing I did in order to get that punishment was inexcusable so, although it was a harsh punishment, it was deserved. The beating itself was not so horrible, it was my mental state that did me over and having spoken to Him about this, I know that he understood exactly where I was at so I suppose the risk and fear was mostly in my head. We have calmly discussed all of this, and I know that in future, if he is that angry at me, he will make sure he calms down before dealing with me. I have learnt my lesson and will do my utmost to make sure I never piss him off like that again. As for the comment on writing when pissed off -- I wrote the original post during the phase where I was alone for a few days, staring at the walls and trying to figure things out... I needed advice and tips on how to deal with the situation. I wasn't aiming to have Him torn down, but rather seeking advice on what the motivation may have been and how to effectively cope with the situation. I don't think I have been abused - I was thrown in the deep end, forced to deal with something that I had never had to deal with before. I agree that it's bad to punish when angry, but people make mistakes. I certainly have. I don't think he will do it again, and I feel safe in his presence. I think, at the end of the day, it's all relative - each relationship is different. This was a major learning curve for me, and I appreciate all of the input from everyone 12 Jun 09, 6:01 AM GH_Master_of_462089 CA, 4 yrs forget 'after-care" for the moment. If you cant, as a Master, walk away, put down the crop, and say " I am not in any shape to control another as of this moment, not being in control of myself", then you have to re-think being a Master. I have had my moments of, shall we say, over-enthusiasm, emphasizing to my Loved One, the issues for correction in emphatic terms. When this was called to my attention, I simply terminated the session. My motto is EVERYONE, gets ONE pass on a serious error. Failing to deal with a SECOND serious Error, puts the responsibility on the slave, as to whether to remain, IMO. GH 13 Jun 09, 1:01 PM moebius_slave US(LA), 3 yrs omerta88 wrote: My aunt was in an abusive relationship so dont think I don't know what I'm talking about. Her husband would beat my cousin till he couldn't sit and give my aunt black eyes. Afterwards he would always come home with a gift for her and my cousin talking about, "I'm so sorry, it will never happen again... ect. Refer to the poem "HE Brought Me Flowers" i am in no way calling you an abuser as i don't know you personally...but, (there's always a but isn't there?), BUT i would like to point out that not all abuse is physical. there is one thing that my first husband respects...his own skin. after my father found out what he was doing to me and offered to remove said skin, he didn't hit me anymore...the emotional abuse was just as bad though. i am very very familiar with this poem, its one of the things that helped me to gather courage to leave my first husband. while you may not have intentionally set out to abuse your pet, you still damaged her trust in you. imo, without trust...there is nothing. even if we don't take any of that into account, and just look at the title of the thread, the exact thing your pet had an issue with, aftercare...aftercare is not coddling, it is not positive reinforcement. its is only that...aftercare. something she only did not receive directly after...or hours...it was days afterwords. blissful deviant wrote: After dropping me off, I didn't leave my apartment or speak to anyone for days. I sat around the place, staring at walls and was just generally out of it and not recovering at all. if her mental state was bad to begin with and then you don't hear from her for days on end, no one hears from her for days on end...well, wouldn't it be your responsibility as her M/O/D/Whatever to check on her? The devil came to me last night and asked what I wanted in exchange for my soul. I still can't believe I said pizza. Friggin' cravings. Next page