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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "false entitlement/expectations and needs" 1 2 false entitlement/expectations and needs (20) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. 7 Jul 09, 2:49 AM landstoree US(LA), 2 yrs Ou_pais wrote: Part of the problem, i think, is that not all *free* people are used to knowing what their needs are. Many free people rarely have to find exactly where that line is between "I need it" and "I really want it" because if they want something badly enough they can have it. They may have to make sacrifices in other areas, or wait for it, but they can at least work towards it and keep that hope alive. Whereas a want/need feels very different if you're in a position when you know that it's unattainable--especially if it's not necessarily unattainable, it's that it's being denied by one specific person who also has the power to grant your want/need. Much of what makes any relationship work is self control and self knowledge. It is my observation: these two concepts are more important in M/s relationships than in the plain vanilla. Two free and equal persons can simply renegotiate or walk, and this happens a lot, but for a M/s relationship, this is much more difficult - if not impossible. A slave should know themselves and their needs and their wants - but this is not something that a slave will necessarily know from the beginning. A master must know these things as well, and I think a master should know them before he takes on a slave. 7 Jul 09, 5:08 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Ou_pais wrote: Bummer, there was another post here that included something about "being a slave doesn't make you any less able to know what your needs are" that i wanted to reply to but didn't have time and now it's gone. ... Whereas a want/need feels very different if you're in a position when you know that it's unattainable--especially if it's not necessarily unattainable, it's that it's being denied by one specific person who also has the power to grant your want/need. ... Sleep is also a hard one for me; i often feel that i "need" more sleep but He decides what time i go to bed as well as what time i get up. Well, part of me says that He's the one who has to deal with me being cranky when i'm tired; part of me says i am still responsible for my own behavior until i'm so sleep-deprived i'm hallucinating. ... In addition, i *do* think that being submissive can make someone less able to figure out what his/her needs are. But the reality of a want or need isn't dependent on whether or not it will be met - that's my point. (I think you were referring to my post? ) What I'm saying is the only way a person who knows themselves well is going to lose that ability is through some unhealthy/unrealistic feature of the relationship. Your lack of sleep would be an example. (I'd like to use it on a generic level here - please don't take it as a commentary on your personal life) If the submissive wakes up cranky, it's clear they needed more sleep. If it becomes a regular occurrence that isn't resolved (earlier bedtimes) or even acknowledged ("I know you need more sleep, but...") by the dominant it will naturally cause confusion for the submissive. The submissive looks to the dominant to set standards and if they continually conflict with her own, it's her own she will begin to doubt. But that's a thing that can happen through a lack of understanding or communication in any unequal relationship - parent/child, employer/employee, etc. It isn't something exclusive or necessary to submission or slavery. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 15 Jul 09, 1:51 AM Ou_pais US, 5 yrs EvaMaria wrote: Ou_pais wrote: Bummer, there was another post here that included something about "being a slave doesn't make you any less able to know what your needs are" that i wanted to reply to but didn't have time and now it's gone. ... Whereas a want/need feels very different if you're in a position when you know that it's unattainable--especially if it's not necessarily unattainable, it's that it's being denied by one specific person who also has the power to grant your want/need. ... Sleep is also a hard one for me; i often feel that i "need" more sleep but He decides what time i go to bed as well as what time i get up. Well, part of me says that He's the one who has to deal with me being cranky when i'm tired; part of me says i am still responsible for my own behavior until i'm so sleep-deprived i'm hallucinating. ... In addition, i *do* think that being submissive can make someone less able to figure out what his/her needs are. But the reality of a want or need isn't dependent on whether or not it will be met - that's my point. (I think you were referring to my post? ) What I'm saying is the only way a person who knows themselves well is going to lose that ability is through some unhealthy/unrealistic feature of the relationship. Your lack of sleep would be an example. (I'd like to use it on a generic level here - please don't take it as a commentary on your personal life) If the submissive wakes up cranky, it's clear they needed more sleep. If it becomes a regular occurrence that isn't resolved (earlier bedtimes) or even acknowledged ("I know you need more sleep, but...") by the dominant it will naturally cause confusion for the submissive. The submissive looks to the dominant to set standards and if they continually conflict with her own, it's her own she will begin to doubt. But that's a thing that can happen through a lack of understanding or communication in any unequal relationship - parent/child, employer/employee, etc. It isn't something exclusive or necessary to submission or slavery. Eva 3 things--first, no, that was a post by somebody else, but that's ok. Second, i think whether something is a want or a need is somewhat fluid, since i consider a need to be something without which i cannot function the way i am supposed to. And i *do* think that the *perception* of whether or not a desire can be fulfilled (eventually, perhaps) does or can tip the balance of whether i continue to function appropriately. And i think this is a huge part of reactance as well. Third, i purposefully used the example of sleep because just waking up cranky does *not* mean i need more sleep. Some people could get fifteen hours of sleep a day and still wake up cranky. Cranky is something i can and, i think, should overcome. When i get to the point where i'm answering questions Master didn't ask, that's when we know i need more sleep, because my *functioning* is impaired. (And at that point i'm not usually cranky, so i know the crankiness isn't actually a sign that i'm all that tired. All that tired looks totally different.) Now of course "can and should" overcome is questionable. So, let's talk about not necessarily sleep-related, but just crankiness in general. Honestly, i can *always* find a reason for why i'm cranky if i think about it, and, you know, Master makes all the decisions so usually it's ALL HIS FAULT. Now, does that mean when i get cranky i *need* Him to change His behavior? (lol) Personally, i think it means i need to get better control of *my* behavior. Which i can. But it's easy for me to say "I'm really unhappy. I'm behaving badly. Therefore i'm not getting something i *need*, so Master should do something to take care of me." Yes, if i absolutely with all my strength try and use all my coping skills and none of them work and i'm still really upset, maybe Master should step in at that point. But until then, it's my responsibility to control my *own* behavior. pais 15 Jul 09, 5:09 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Ou Pais - To be fair, you did mention being cranky when you are tired and your reference to sleep/waking times along with "...until I'm so sleep-deprived" did give me to believe the problem was a lack of sleep. And my response was based on a theoretical situation wherein the lack of sleep was inarguable - but if I wasn't clear, I apologize. Ou_pais wrote: Now of course "can and should" overcome is questionable. So, let's talk about not necessarily sleep-related, but just crankiness in general. Honestly, i can *always* find a reason for why i'm cranky if i think about it, and, you know, Master makes all the decisions so usually it's ALL HIS FAULT. Now, does that mean when i get cranky i *need* Him to change His behavior? (lol) Personally, i think it means i need to get better control of *my* behavior. Which i can. But it's easy for me to say "I'm really unhappy. I'm behaving badly. Therefore i'm not getting something i *need*, so Master should do something to take care of me." Yes, if i absolutely with all my strength try and use all my coping skills and none of them work and i'm still really upset, maybe Master should step in at that point. But until then, it's my responsibility to control my *own* behavior. The issue you describe here is one of emotion vs. logic. You know you don't need more sleep and you know you need to learn to approach things less emotionally. It makes sense to me and I've experienced it, too. But are you saying it is a response you believe to be specifically and unavoidably due to the nature of an M/s relationship, rather than a normal part of anyone's personality? As in, have/could you not respond the same way in similar situations occurring either before or outside the context of your relationship? Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 16 Jul 09, 5:59 PM DolcettGirl US(FL), 2 yrs One of the things I have always dreamed about is applying for a slave job and, if the man to whom I am applying accepts me, he "formally" enslaves me. I apply in hopes that my needs will be met - food, clothing (when appropriate), shelter, caring, health care, and yes, even loving. And in return I give my Master total, unlimited control; I literally am his to do with as he pleases. In my mind I picture day-to-day life. I am not necessarily confined to my Master's house. I shop for him, run errands for him, but always return. In public I wear something or other that identifies me as a total submissive slave. 20 Jul 09, 2:59 AM Ou_pais US, 5 yrs EvaMaria wrote: Ou Pais - To be fair, you did mention being cranky when you are tired and your reference to sleep/waking times along with "...until I'm so sleep-deprived" did give me to believe the problem was a lack of sleep. And my response was based on a theoretical situation wherein the lack of sleep was inarguable - but if I wasn't clear, I apologize. Yes, sorry, the point i was trying to make is that there is a continuum of want shading into need. If it's just crankiness, it's a "want", and the crankiness is my responsibility to overcome. Once it gets into the hallucination territory, there's not much i can do to overcome that, and it's crossed into being a "need". So when you said If the submissive wakes up cranky, it's clear they needed more sleep i was trying to clarify that was exactly my point--just because a sub wakes up cranky *doesn't* mean that they need more sleep. If i wake up cranky, it means i *want* more sleep and i *need* to try to control myself. Trying to tie it back to the OP, assuming i'm going to get the 8 or 8.5 hours i want is one of those false expectations i need to deal with. Ou_pais wrote: Now of course "can and should" overcome is questionable. So, let's talk about not necessarily sleep-related, but just crankiness in general. Honestly, i can *always* find a reason for why i'm cranky if i think about it, and, you know, Master makes all the decisions so usually it's ALL HIS FAULT. Now, does that mean when i get cranky i *need* Him to change His behavior? (lol) Personally, i think it means i need to get better control of *my* behavior. Which i can. But it's easy for me to say "I'm really unhappy. I'm behaving badly. Therefore i'm not getting something i *need*, so Master should do something to take care of me." Yes, if i absolutely with all my strength try and use all my coping skills and none of them work and i'm still really upset, maybe Master should step in at that point. But until then, it's my responsibility to control my *own* behavior. The issue you describe here is one of emotion vs. logic. You know you don't need more sleep and you know you need to learn to approach things less emotionally. It makes sense to me and I've experienced it, too. But are you saying it is a response you believe to be specifically and unavoidably due to the nature of an M/s relationship, rather than a normal part of anyone's personality? As in, have/could you not respond the same way in similar situations occurring either before or outside the context of your relationship? Eva Partly is emotion vs. logic, yes. And no, i don't think the whole phenomenon is limited to M/s, although part of it is. Let me see if i can be more clear, although obviously i've been struggling with that this whole thread! First, i was trying to say that for most of us most of the time that line of where a want shades into being a need is unclear because it's impossible to tell exactly where or when it's going to happen. That is, i can say, "If i don't get enough sleep, eventually i'm going to become unable to control myself, and that's the line where the want becomes a need." But i can't tell you exactly when that's going to happen. If i'm getting a lot of heavy play and not much aftercare, i can say, "If this keeps up, eventually i'm going to break down completely, fall to pieces, and be basically non-functional," but i can't say "three more scenes without aftercare is the limit" and i don't think anybody could. So to the comments people make about self-knowledge--yes, i agree that self-knowledge is good and important but i don't think it's ever 100% attainable. At least it's not by me. So for most of us, again, that line between want and need is unclear no matter how self-aware we are. And i think that in most normal circumstances it can safely remain unclear. In most normal circumstances, if you don't like something, you start working to change it long before the want becomes a need. If you're tired, you just give sleep more and more priority in your schedule until you're not as tired. Now, there are plenty of circumstances where people do reach their limits and discover exactly where that line is, in ways that has nothing to do with M/s, either because of difficult involuntary environmental conditions or because they just want to push themselves to see how far they can go. (Mountain climbing, for instance, is an endeavor where people push on after they may start feeling that they *want* to stop and discover too late that they *needed* to stop.) But in my M/s dynamic i meet that line far more often than i ever did when i was free. And, sometimes i want to give up and say it's a need when really it's just a want and i'm not pushing myself as hard as i really could. The part i think that's fairly unique to M/s (although i suppose also could apply in prison situations, or if you're in some occupation like the military with a strict hierarchy, or if you have a very small child) is that we meet that line not because of cosmic forces or because we decide to train for a marathon or something of that nature. It's because one person looks at us and says, "you can't have what you want." And the theory of reactance--not just in an M/s context, the original psychological theory--is that people tend to want most exactly what was just restricted from them. So let me sleep all i want, and maybe i'll sleep 8 hours on average, and some nights just 7, no problem. Then tell me i can only sleep 7, and suddenly that extra hour of sleep is completely vital to my continued existence. What is actually just a want jumps the line over into need territory and it doesn't immediately feel like i'm being illogical or overly emotional. That's reactance. Give me a little while & i'll recognize that it's reactance & i'll know i'm out of line, and yes, the logic side can get a handle on the emotional side. The other part i talked about is having one need that blurs or hides other needs. While in general that's not unique to M/s either the specific form of "needing to please Master makes it harder to be aware of my own needs" is, arguably. And perhaps another aspect more unique to M/s is that there is an inequality in the relationship so that one person has more responsibility to overcome emotions with logic whereas the other person has more freedom to decide that the emotions can outweigh the logic sometimes, and that can lead to feelings by the first person that things are unfair or unjust that then need to be overcome by logic again? Again, trying to tie this all into the OP . . . so how exactly can the logic side get stronger than the emotional side in order to overcome those false expectations? It seems to me that the way that's worked best for me is to try to focus as much as possible and as often as possible on remembering that the goal is to live for Him. So that was kind of what i was talking about in my first post, about telling myself over and over again that this is what i'm in this for. Given that most of my other posts seem to have been meandering around the point that i was trying to make, i don't have many hopes this one is any more clear. Someday i'll figure it out well enough to explain what i'm talking about. pais Edited 15 Aug 09, 8:30 PM by Ou_pais 20 Jul 09, 7:50 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Pais - I'm understanding you to say that when most of a person's coping skills were learned in a context of (at least some) self-direction, those skills don't work as well in a different situation (M/s for example) and must (to some extent) be re-learned. And until this happens, it's a natural thing that one's emotional responses will tend to come to the fore? That makes good sense to me and I agree. Ou_pais wrote: Given that most of my other posts seem to have been meandering around the point that i was trying to make, i don't have many hopes this one is any more clear. Someday i'll figure it out well enough to explain what i'm talking about. I think you already have. Even if I don't have your meaning exactly, this was a good reply for me. Thanks for taking the time to write/post it. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 21 Jul 09, 12:59 PM Ou_pais US, 5 yrs EvaMaria wrote: Pais - I'm understanding you to say that when most of a person's coping skills were learned in a context of (at least some) self-direction, those skills don't work as well in a different situation (M/s for example) and must (to some extent) be re-learned. And until this happens, it's a natural thing that one's emotional responses will tend to come to the fore? That makes good sense to me and I agree. Well, i'm not sure it's what i said or even what i meant to say, but it makes good sense to me also! So i'll just pretend that's what i meant. I think you already have. Even if I don't have your meaning exactly, this was a good reply for me. Thanks for taking the time to write/post it. Eva Awesome, i'm glad. It occurred to me after i posted it that in addition to the "mantra" technique i have been doing a lot of, shall we call it sublimation in the last few weeks? Consciously trying to take the energy from any negative emotion and channeling it into more positive pursuits. It's been working remarkably well with the one side effect that it's affecting transparency since it's not as immediately clear to Master when something is bothering me. pais 22 Jul 09, 2:17 AM Blissful_Deviant AU, 2 yrs Very interesting and complex topic, eek! Rather than comment on what has already been said, I will write on how this topic affects my personal situation. I was very young when I first encountered my Owner - around 13 - and I thought he was the most amazing person ever, begged him for years to take me on and he waited until I was 18 (he's 10yrs older than me). Meeting him at such a young age, and having that 5 years to fantasise about what I wanted from him, when we DID start something up there was a heap of false expectations about what I wanted to get and what I would in fact be getting, in reality. At the start, none of my needs were being met, I was simply a fucktoy and we kept things that way - which was okay, because I had my needs met by others. Slowly slowly the relationship evolved and funnily enough, the way I managed to get my NEEDS met was by letting go of my WANTS. In order to be perfection for him, I had to spend time giving up all expectations and sense of entitlement (eg: "You've craved me since I was [whatever age], I hold a power over you and deserve [blah blah blah]" - sort of how Lolita manipulates). In the end I had to consider the "what if's" of what I wanted in life that didn't necessarily match what he wanted - for example, children, marriage, monogamy, all that. Walking into a situation, craving and expecting those things was a huge let down. Letting go of those things and deciding to completely submit to him, to work on being his perfection, got us to where we are today: all my needs are met, and oddly enough marriage and children are being discussed and we have merged from a completely open relationship to what we would consider committed - we "swing" but that's about it. So I guess I am saying, for me, I started off with a sense of entitlement and false expectations, and didn't have any of my needs met - for me, those needs are separate to the sense of entitlement; The things I expected were not things I needed. Once I got rid of that, my needs were met. The only problem is that now, we have gotten to the point where we are so "normal" (we started out as purely "fetish" and the 'nilla stuff slowly developed over the years) that he says I have a sense of entitlement to him ha ha hey it's not my fault he can't get me out of his head I encourage him to go and have his fun, he says he gets everything he wants from me - I would say that's more him freaking out than me having a sense of entitlement though hehehe Oh and PS if needs aren't being met and a sub is genuinely unhappy and can't see the situation changing... Then I think they are justified in leaving the relationship. I don't think that has anything to do with a false expectation or sense of entitlement, just a sub realising that they are in fact human and do deserve to get what they need in order to be happy and satisfied in life. xo Bliss **I don't think anything needs to be said about the age at which I met my Owner either - I sought him out, and he flat out refused to have anything to do with me until I was 18!!** 25 Feb 10, 6:39 PM curious_bina US(TN), 2 yrs dorine_van_Frank wrote: false entitlement/expectations and needs Greetings everyone i've been thinking a lot about false entitlement in a M/s or TPE relationship lately. Although it is not desirable to have expectations and feel that you are entitled to anything as an owned slave - that is much easier said than done) i'm a bit at a loss here: how do expectations relate to needs? Is it ok to be expecting to have your needs fullfilled? Does ' false entitlement' count when it comes to needs? It sounds a bit strange, reading my own sentence, but i guess you know what i mean. Or is there something that can be called ' right sense of entitlement' when it comes to a slave?? It's a slow changing. You just have to keep in mind that what Master wants, is what you should want. That he comes first, and you're there to please him. He's there to direct you, and you're the one to be directed. Something that could help, is when you do get rewarded, be extra thankful of it and remind yourself that he doesn't have to reward you. Frank (my Owner) says that he does not expect me to have no expectations, that is impossible. But he expects me to let go of desires and expectations and addapt to what he wants from me. in our relationship, we use the concept of false entitlement in situations when i have expectations and kind of feel like he is ' wrong' or something is ' unfair'. Which is a feeling human beings - even in a M/s relationship- can have, can't they? But in our relationship they are undesirable. Now i fully agree, but still: how do you work on this and what is your way of dealing with expectations and false entitlement? Are there areas in which you feel you let go easier than in other areas (i do!) and what is your opinion on the relation between expectations and needs? Thank you for your input! dorine Expectations - something you want Needs - something you have to have. For example, after a session with your Master you might feel you've pleased him and you expect him to let you cum. But he doesn't have to let you. A need would be something like needing to go to the bathroom, and not being able to wait. That's a need. -s Always the curious one ~ s