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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "false entitlement/expectations and needs" 1 2 false entitlement/expectations and needs (20) Tue 5 May 09, 3:22 PM dorine_van_Frank NL, 2 yrs Greetings everyone i've been thinking a lot about false entitlement in a M/s or TPE relationship lately. Although it is not desirable to have expectations and feel that you are entitled to anything as an owned slave - that is much easier said than done) i'm a bit at a loss here: how do expectations relate to needs? Is it ok to be expecting to have your needs fullfilled? Does ' false entitlement' count when it comes to needs? It sounds a bit strange, reading my own sentence, but i guess you know what i mean. Or is there something that can be called ' right sense of entitlement' when it comes to a slave?? Frank (my Owner) says that he does not expect me to have no expectations, that is impossible. But he expects me to let go of desires and expectations and addapt to what he wants from me. in our relationship, we use the concept of false entitlement in situations when i have expectations and kind of feel like he is ' wrong' or something is ' unfair'. Which is a feeling human beings - even in a M/s relationship- can have, can't they? But in our relationship they are undesirable. Now i fully agree, but still: how do you work on this and what is your way of dealing with expectations and false entitlement? Are there areas in which you feel you let go easier than in other areas (i do!) and what is your opinion on the relation between expectations and needs? Thank you for your input! dorine Edited Tue 5 May 09, 3:24 PM by dorine_van_Frank 5 May 09, 5:51 PM Ms_Valentine UK, 2 yrs I do not have a slave but I do have my 24/7 sub paul but to all intents and purposes he is treated like a possession and accorded no rights beyond the one to leave me if he wishes. I worked out a list of paul's 'needs' and 'wants' and he knows what exists on each list and agreed with me, so we are both very clear as to what he is 'entitled' to and what he is not. Each M-type will no doubt make up their own minds as to what constitutes 'needs' and 'wants'. Expectations just seems like another word for 'wants' as I see it. It has the feel of a word loaded with pressure to be put upon an m-type to allow the sub/slave things which may actually just be 'wants'. 'Wants' are things which I give to paul when I wish and withold them if I don't wish to give them. Needs are things which I feel are those thing necessary for his most basic level of mental, physical and emotional well being. 5 May 09, 8:59 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 2 yrs dorine_van_Frank wrote: i've been thinking a lot about false entitlement in a M/s or TPE relationship lately. Although it is not desirable to have expectations and feel that you are entitled to anything as an owned slave - that is much easier said than done) I think if a person holds to the notion of natural rights, and they acknowledge that a condition of healthy slavery does not cancel a person's perceptive abilities, a slave without expectations would be an impossibility. This is not to say I think all expectations are valid (as in truly necessary) or that the average slave isn't vulnerable to some misconceptions. But no matter how a person wants to define their relationship, if it involves another human and said human has at least an average intelligence, needs and expectations are part of the reality. Unless it's one of abuse, I see no way around it. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 6 May 09, 7:58 AM Ms_Valentine UK, 2 yrs EvaMaria wrote: dorine_van_Frank wrote: i've been thinking a lot about false entitlement in a M/s or TPE relationship lately. Although it is not desirable to have expectations and feel that you are entitled to anything as an owned slave - that is much easier said than done) I think if a person holds to the notion of natural rights, and they acknowledge that a condition of healthy slavery does not cancel a person's perceptive abilities, a slave without expectations would be an impossibility. This is not to say I think all expectations are valid (as in truly necessary) or that the average slave isn't vulnerable to some misconceptions. But no matter how a person wants to define their relationship, if it involves another human and said human has at least an average intelligence, needs and expectations are part of the reality. Unless it's one of abuse, I see no way around it. Eva Surely it is up to the M-type to manage those 'expectations' and presumably start doing so at an early stage in the relationship, so the sub/slave is under as few misapprehensions as possible about what life under that D/O/M will be like. I am certainly not saying I expect a human being to become a robot and have no expectation but the m-type must manage those and help the sub/slave to have self control and discipline to know what is a need and a want and to act accordingly. It is a responsibility on both parties ( if it is important to them) to air and debate any areas of potential misunderstanding before it gets to a point where one has given over consent to be controlled or 'owned' and then has a different set of limits, allowed behaviours and so on. There is a huge difference between what one person may be thinking of as 'entitlement' and another's version. One may think of being allowed sleep and food as an entitlement and I guess most of us sane ones would agree. In some relationships, love and romantic interaction might be an entitlement in others, not. For some, entitlement false or other wise would be worked through in areas like use of 'free' or leisure time. A lot of this question rests upon whether the submissive in question is a slave. If they are a slave then they will be working towards a state of IE with their owner and will be subject to his/her will and command on every issue.This should mean the issues of rights and expectations will have been discussed, honed and understood with the slave ultimately knowing that what their Owner wants will prevail. If the relationship is one where more 'rights' have been retained by the submissive partner, then it should be clear which rights are still in their hands and which are not. Most problems seem to arise through lack of communication on points of importance. Edited 6 May 09, 8:14 AM by Ms_Valentine 8 May 09, 6:50 PM dorine_van_Frank NL, 2 yrs EvaMaria wrote: dorine_van_Frank wrote: i've been thinking a lot about false entitlement in a M/s or TPE relationship lately. Although it is not desirable to have expectations and feel that you are entitled to anything as an owned slave - that is much easier said than done) I think if a person holds to the notion of natural rights, and they acknowledge that a condition of healthy slavery does not cancel a person's perceptive abilities, a slave without expectations would be an impossibility. Eva i would say that a condition of healthy slavery will not cancel a persons perceptive abilities, but it will surely change them in some cases, even a great deal! i mean if i am to follow my Owner in every direction, then my way of seeing things, my expectations are no longer that important and they are definately NOT leading where we go in the relationship. Therefore, expectations aren often counterproductive to the process of enslavement or TPE. So one way or another, i have to deal with those expectations, change them, get rid of them...but i guess i agree the latter is almost impossable.. Or wasn't this what you meant? dorine 9 May 09, 11:42 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 2 yrs No - this is it. I agree that when slave expectations aren't in line with master plans, problems will arise. But as Ms Valentine says, that's an issue of communication rather than expectation in and of itself. And as she said, there will be some "rights" that naturally fall under the authority/discretion of the dominant partner. I think expectation is a part of all living, growing relationships. The way I view it is that even in slavery every human has rights - the basics being health, safety and security. In order for a relationship to be healthy, a slave must know his/her master respects this idea and believe that he/she will act accordingly. In this context, expectation is trust in its active form. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille ) 29 Jun 09, 7:17 PM Ou_pais US, 4 yrs This whole thing about needs, wants, expectations, trust, etc. is something i spend a lot of time thinking about, and i'm still no closer to really figuring out where i'm at with it, so this is probably going to be long and rambling and not make much sense. On the one hand, i know i have this idea of the "perfect" slave as some kind of happy robot, more Zen than Zen, always excited to do whatever the owner wants to do. (Why can't Master always want to do the things that will make me excited to obey?? ) On the other hand, not only am i still human despite all my efforts to magically become this perfect slave, but Master doesn't even really *want* me to be that perfect slave all the time. Maybe. At least that's what it seems like. A month or two ago He decided for the first time that i should work on being more of that kind of slave than i already was. The thing is, what He wants is so ever-changing that sometimes i feel like i can never keep up. A while ago--maybe 6 months into being collared, probably around the time we were transitioning into TPE--i came up with a list of my "hardish" limits & needs. It was intended to be an honest look at what it would take for me to continue functioning both in general and as effective & pleasing property. Needs included guidance, positive reinforcement, a certain number of orgasms (i've got the orgasm-equivalent of Seasonal Affective Disorder, i swear), a certain amount of pain, permission to express myself within reason, a certain amount of access to wilderness, and enough time to finish assigned tasks or else not being punished for not finishing. None of these were needs i was particularly proud of, but it seemed pretty clear to me based on past experience that i would go crazy without them. (Hard limits included some ethical issues and being forced to commute daily through Harvard Square in Cambridge.) At this point, Master hasn't seemed to have much interest in modifying me to remove any of those needs, although most of them have gotten stretched or encroached on from time to time just because of the pressures of life. And they all seem to remain pretty important or necessary for my mental well-being and ability to continue functioning as He prefers. There's a lot i left out when i made that list. Most glaringly, a certain amount of time with Him, and a certain consistency from Him. But i think i couldn't really face at that point just how much i do need from Him in those areas. Because i want so much to be low-maintenance and efficient. Because i made a promise that i would belong to Him worlds without end, so if He's having a rough day and being snappish i start panicking and wondering how much of that i'm going to be able to take FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE OH NOES!!! Sigh. Mostly i just feel like it's my job to be a good slave to Him, not His job to be a good Master for me. So i spend a lot of time telling myself "This is what i signed up for. Nobody promised it would be easy. Just imagine how much worse it would be without Him." At the same time, dammit, i want what i want. Enough time with Him being who i am and not out trying to be vanilla in front of His kids or at my job. But also, not feeling like i have to blame myself if something is not exactly how He wants it to be because i don't understand what He wants because there's not enough consistency. And right now i'm also really struggling with the idea that i need to please Him. Why isn't enough for Him to be pleased, whether it's me doing it or someone/something else? Are these expectations or entitlements? Maybe. Where's the line? In our dynamic, i don't have *any* rights. *All* of these "needs" are actually privileges. It's also my responsibility to tell Him if i feel like i need something i'm not getting--but then He decides whether it's really a need or a want. This post really sounds as if i'm miserable most of the time, and i'm not. Most of the time i'm too busy to be miserable! But maybe partly because i'm so busy most of the time, when it's time to stop running forward at full speed and just follow Him, blindly trusting and at His pace, wow, that can be hard, even though it's what i want more than anything. pais 30 Jun 09, 8:06 AM dorine_van_Frank NL, 2 yrs hello pais thank you for your long post. i can relate to many of the thoughts in it! Ou_pais wrote: On the one hand, i know i have this idea of the "perfect" slave as some kind of happy robot, more Zen than Zen, always excited to do whatever the owner wants to do. lol this idea is probably something only slaves have, at least i've never heard of a Master talking that way about how they want their slaves. Frank usually says that he will sell me, the moment i'm perfect. Ou_pais wrote: The thing is, what He wants is so ever-changing that sometimes i feel like i can never keep up. Ou_pais wrote: Sigh. Mostly i just feel like it's my job to be a good slave to Him, not His job to be a good Master for me. Yes...but this is a learning process. Besides, i guess most Masters do like putting energy in being a good Master. But i relate to the idea that it is not my place to tell him what i good Master is like. He tells me what a good slave is like, and sometimes, he doesn't even tell me! But the point is, i try and remain flexible, to adjust myself to him, his changing moods, his changing ideas and wants. Masters are human too, aren't they, so they are growing and changing. Although it would be easier if they would be - always- stable, the same, predictable - some kind of Zenlike, happy robot Master maybe))) Well, how boring that sounds... Ou_pais wrote: So i spend a lot of time telling myself "This is what i signed up for. Nobody promised it would be easy. Just imagine how much worse it would be without Him." At the same time, dammit, i want what i want. ) i never believed this myth about slaves or subs who do not want al kinds of things, who are scared, shy, the Masters pushing their limits. We are eager, we want everything and we want it now! And we want heavy stuff, attention, being in extacy for 24/7....don't we have the same energy Masters do? At least that's how Frank and i view it... That doesn't mean that i can have my say or that i can behave in the same way. It doesn't work like that at all - like you said: a privilege is a privilege. So i get frustrated, and happy, because, deep down inside i do not really want it to be my way. Noboby promised it would be easy, nor fair. Life is no fairy tale and M/s life isn't either. Then i start over again, thinking that this is what i signed up for, just obeying, serving him, talking, writing...if you are a person like that, it won't stop once you're a slave. But i feel it deepens, while i reflect and i get a little bit 'better' or 'more what he wants' every day. thanks for you thoughts dorine 30 Jun 09, 2:34 PM 957-909-675 US(PA), 19 mths a lil squirrel offers greetings to You my Master and i talked about this before i was allowed to reply, He feels that needs are part of what makes U/us human and there will always be some form of need... for some, even being a sub/slave is a form of need that's being met. there's never a way to completely make someone not have wants or needs... because it is H/human nature to have some of those deep into U/us, but its how they are controlled and developed that makes them into good traits. my Master knows that there was baggage involved when He took me onto His chain, and wit that He has been very patient with me in working through all of those things at a pace that won't add anymore trauma to me. it's been very kind of Him to be so good to this lowly, (and when He found me worthless)girl. as for wants ... when my behavior has been excellent, when everything is done to the letter... if i have been as close to perfect as He knows i can be right now i will be allowed to want something, He approves my want to make sure that it is something that will please Him, but i can pick something out or ask to do something. this is a very, very rare treat but it is something that means Hes been pleased. other than that ... wants and needs are at His digression ... and my only want is to please Him... my only need is to belong to Him. ~*~lil squirrel ~*~ 'What are you?' I inquired. 'A slave girl,' she said. 'What is your duty?' I asked. 'Absolute obedience,' she cried out." Hunters of Gor, page 258 5 Jul 09, 3:53 PM slave_of_The_Tesh US(FL), 14 mths It really depends on the people. If it works for them to have the slave be treated as worthless and unable to even be called human, that's up to them. I don't like that concept. Sorry, but it actually sickens me somewhat to see so many M-types call their slaves "it" instead of he or she. However, I'm not going to sit here and say it's wrong. If it works for them, more power to them. To each their own. My Master and I have also talked this out. He allows me a good deal of freedom to do what I want, though I am expected to obey quickly when He commands. I'm still working on the "unquestioning" bit, because I'm very curious and I like to know the reasons for something. It isn't that I intend to disobey. I just really like to know why. I am allowed to have expectations, because W/we are first and foremost romantic partners, and as such we talk about O/our expectations, wants, and needs and come to an agreement before W/we act on anything big. He says the reason He allows me such freedom is because He loves me and He wants to keep me happy. He also recognizes that I am a human being and that I will not agree to being treated or talked to as if I am worthless, nor will I allow Him to take away my ability to think for myself. I have a name and I expect to be treated with respect. I belong to Him, but W/we both agreed that we would treat each other with the same respect W/we wanted in return. All that was discussed before we even got into the D/s part of our relationship. I understand that this dynamic doesn't work for every M/s relationship, and that's ok. It only has to work for U/us, and it does. Owned by The_Tesh This post has probably been edited for spelling/grammar because I'm weird like that. 6 Jul 09, 2:03 AM Ou_pais US, 4 yrs Bummer, there was another post here that included something about "being a slave doesn't make you any less able to know what your needs are" that i wanted to reply to but didn't have time and now it's gone. Part of the problem, i think, is that not all *free* people are used to knowing what their needs are. Many free people rarely have to find exactly where that line is between "I need it" and "I really want it" because if they want something badly enough they can have it. They may have to make sacrifices in other areas, or wait for it, but they can at least work towards it and keep that hope alive. Whereas a want/need feels very different if you're in a position when you know that it's unattainable--especially if it's not necessarily unattainable, it's that it's being denied by one specific person who also has the power to grant your want/need. If free people want more affection or attention from their partners they can negotiate to get it or they can move on and look for a relationship that's more fulfilling for them. Does that mean they needed more affection? Maybe, but when it comes down to it, who knows? So, i certainly "need" a certain level of attention/affection in order to function mentally & emotionally at the level expected of me. How much attention/affection is that? Sometimes it certainly feels to me that i "need" more than i'm getting. But is it that i'm just letting my intense *want* be an excuse for bad behavior and i'm just spoiled (and believe me, i get *lots* of attention so it's very probably i'm just spoiled)? Does that make sense? Sleep is also a hard one for me; i often feel that i "need" more sleep but He decides what time i go to bed as well as what time i get up. Well, part of me says that He's the one who has to deal with me being cranky when i'm tired; part of me says i am still responsible for my own behavior until i'm so sleep-deprived i'm hallucinating. In addition, i *do* think that being submissive can make someone less able to figure out what his/her needs are. It's like when you're really thirsty you don't always notice how hungry you are. When i really need to please Master, which is all the time except when He's being a big mean jerk, it's harder for me to recognize any of my other needs or to figure out whether they are needs or just wants. (Of course He's never a big mean jerk, ever. ) pais Next page