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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "A community continuum?" 1 2 3 4 A community continuum? (33) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Tue 21 Apr 09, 12:35 AM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs My boy started a thread on the reactions of society to people in power exchange relationships recently. His question was essentially 'would you like to be more open if societal norms allowed'? In the thread the issue of the scope of societal disapproval, and the extent to which it is feared was raised. I think this was an interesting subject and would like to look at it again a little more here. Fear of oppression, or tangible acts of oppression seem to frequently concern people in our community. While we may of course take the perspective that we can all shout 'We're here! We're kinky! We're Proud!' for many people this seems not to be perceived as an option, as the costs to their lives that could be incurred are simply too high. This therefore appears to leave the majority of us with the option of simply navigating life as best we can, and hoping not to have to compromise ourselves too much. Fearing the repression of societal tyranny – lost careers, compromised parenting, the safety of our children or families being jeopardised, lost reputation and friendships or family relationships, legal sanctions, medical sanctions, etc – as a community many of us opt for a degree of discretion. This is seen by many people to effectively be a breech of our civil liberties and human rights. Fearing repression and stigmatisation, and censored by the implicit and explicit threats made by those in positions of power, many people feel marginalised in a way that if not careful, leaves us both vulnerable and isolated. Such acts of censorship on the part of those in power seem to me to be the result of a desire to regulate the lives of other people they hold in contempt, but whatever their motivation, while legal statutes such as the UK spanner laws http://www.spannertrust.org/default.asp exist, such threats are real. While there are of course BDSM activist groups we can all support, to a degree these organisations (though excellent and well worth offering our support to), are perhaps not always designed with people in M/s in mind however. People in M/s, or the more intense forms of D/s, often have less than imagined in common with people who identify with other forms of BDSM. As full time power exchange is by it's very nature, not a state which tends toward frequent public congregation and practice, this leaves people who live in this way with very little opportunity to interact and form friendships and support networks. The internet is probably the main area which allows us to form these support networks. It has been for me, and for many other people I'm sure. People in M/s are thus effectively a minority in a minority in a minority in a minority in a minority….. As such I would suggest those in M/s can be a more vulnerable sector of the community than many others. I would thus suggest that (perhaps sometimes unintentional) discrimination or censorship within the broader BDSM/ power exchange community is an under recognised issue for people living in M/s. Referencing our lifestyle on many BDSM websites routinely leads to us being castigated as dangerous/ freaks/ extremists/ fantasists/ psychologically unbalanced etc, which after a while gets tiring. I personally believe that this is short-sighted of those members of the BDSM community who do this; not simply because of the impact on people in M/s, but because in todays hyper-mediatised environment, and with increasing encroachments on our civil liberties (see http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/ for examples) we are all becoming more vulnerable to outside intervention; and the issues that were once mostly feared are now becoming ever more tangible. While many people currently have a degree of tolerance for a married couple who may occasionally engage on a little spanking etc, far less people are liberal in their thinking about people engaged in full or significant power exchange. Those that are not offended by an M/s lifestyle are also even sometimes afraid to voice their support for our lifestyle in wider society, for fear of persecution themselves. It therefore seems to me that marginalisation of people in M/s from within parts of the wider BDSM scene not only impacts on those in M/s, it's actually a short sighted move for BDSMers as a whole. Keeping our fingers crossed and hoping those in authority – on either an official or simply influential level – simply do not choose to seek to disassociate themselves from, censor, or persecute us, is naïve and will I suspect, ultimately lead to wider spread censorship and intolerance. Once any precedent for ostracism, alienation, prosecution, censorship etc has been set, it is usually only a matter of time before it spreads unless people opt to work against it. Those in fuller power exchanges may make good tactical or political 'sacrifices' today, but the question for the more forward thinking BDSM community like many of you here, I'm sure then becomes what will follow tomorrow? I understand that censorship, and discrimination from outside the BDSM community is not something we can individually change in a tangible way (though joining civil liberties groups etc is of course always a worthwhile option). Censorship, lack of respect for community diversity, and marginalisation from within the BDSM community itself however, is something it seems to me that we would all benefit from actively rejecting, if not out of unity, then simply to attempt to prevent a premise that may spread if allowed to go unchecked. I would be interested to hear others viewpoints on this matter. I look forward to any responses. I realise this is a lengthy post so well done to any brave souls who have made it to the end Best wishes, Tiara 21 Apr 09, 1:50 AM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs I will try to be brief. But this is a very interesting topic. I see many parallels to other minority and some majority activities that are suppressed for reasons of politically correctness or simple bigotry. Regarding politically correct censorship, one needs look no farther than the suppression of dissenting points of view where religion comes into play. And it really doesn't matter whether one is critical of a majority or minority religion, the rush to be politically correct censors free speech as surely as any other oppression. One need only look as far as the Scandinavian cartoonists who had the temerity to poke fun at Islam. Death threats, fatwas, all aimed at limiting freedom of speech. Never mind that the cartoonists were members of the Western press. A minority had to be appeased. Bigotry has been directed at all sorts of minorities. Races have been a favorite of prejudice. Sexual orientation is another target for discrimination. Why not include people who wish to live a lifestyle that was more or less the norm a generation or two ago, yet today is reviled as backward and oppressive. Never mind that each of us who enter into this life style does so of our own accord. What does one do in the face of this sort of myopia? Try to dissolve into the background? Hope that no one notices our choices and then hope that we are simply left alone? Stand up and fight our oppressors? Fight the good fight so that the generations that follow can live without fear and intimidation? Hmmm…I suspect that a middle way must be found. There are too many of them and too few of us. We cannot hope to “win”. Maybe Kissinger was right. Maybe detente is the best we can hope for. Live and let live. Go along to get along. I don't know. But it is a fascinating topic. I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** 21 Apr 09, 2:38 AM 201-997-618 3 yrs ignorance and intolerance breeds censorship and discrimination - but these days, we cant even sing nursery rhymes with the word 'gay' in them anymore for fear it will offend someone - generally people are judgemental and have preconceived ideas based on their lack of a fuller knowledge i think if more people involved in M/s took the time to explain their dynamic - no need to include the kinky sex stuff just like in vanilla marriages there's no need to share private sexual acts with the whole world if you dont want to because it might offend some delicate eyes and ears - but as a lifestyle i cant see why one day M/s will not be more accepted in the same way homosexuality is now more accepted than it used to be - even people who dont agree with the 'acts' are much more tolerant of the 'people' performing them these days - live and let live while agreeing to disagree. its just that people dont understand what they dont understand. its the same for Christians - or Muslims - or Jews and Germans etc - people tend to judge and put them all in the same basket based on the stupidity and/or sensationalism of a few and by the media etc, making everyone else in those groups fear persecution etc - come out come out i say lol - i had no idea about these lifestyles until i came here - i had the preconceived idea it was all weirdness and kink but now i understand its much much more than that - just my view on the matter and along the lines of what i was getting at in my previous post about lifestyle privacy - maybe not the long winded, more intelligent view you're looking for but one none the less peace and i see Remoses has said it much better already as i typed this lol cheers 21 Apr 09, 4:00 AM Bella_Ragazza US(RI), 6 yrs As I see it two things can happen. We as a community being it out into the open and fight for the right to bring our lifestyle to every day society, or we realize that we wont get too far and only cause more harm then good. I believe that trying to "fix" society to see that our view of life is ok will never completely work. There will always be a group or organization who will try and make us out to be sickos for lack of a better term. Just like there will never be complete acceptances for gay rights. I hope I understood the OP, if not then hopefully what I wrote is somewhat knowledgeable. lol Bella 21 Apr 09, 6:02 AM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs I am not entirely clear what exactly you are asking people's views on Mistress Tiara. You explain that BDSM people are criminalised and oppressed in wider society, as well as D/s and M/s people misunderstood within the wider BDSM community, which I agree with in a general sense. In the last section, you seem to be suggesting that we fight, instead of the outside world which cannot be changed, we concentrate our battles within other BDSM people instead, in the hope of influencing the problems in wider society? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you as the main gist of your message seems to be describing the prejudice faced in both places, but not quite so clear what it is you are really asking us about. If I am misunderstanding then the whole rest of this message will be irrelevant, for which I apologise in advance. If this is what you do mean and I have not misunderstood you, then whilst I think I understand your reasons, and agree with the scenario you lay out, I would say no, I do not agree about how to move forward on the issues of oppression by wider society. I do think the problems outside can be affected if we work together towards it. I do think they can't be fixed by facing inward. I don't think we should accept abuse form our own people, but equally I do not think the wider problems we face in society are affected to any significant degree by fighting it - partly because wider society doesn't see the difference. My own experience in other communities leads me to this conclusion. To fix the problems we face in wider society, I think we need to move closer to each other and face outward with our swords. We need to work on pulling together BDSM community in all of its manifestations, and fighting those who oppress us all - further than that - we work on pulling all people together whose relationship or intimacy style is not to Government's taste (which is why I am in CAAN http://www.caan.org.uk rather than a more specific BDSM related campaign group. Why? Because dividing and sub dividing communities destroys collective power. Because it's a very small army if you fight this way. Because it is picking the weaker less dangerous enemy over the one who threatens our lives. Because fighting with each other is what those who oppress like to encourage. Because we all face the same problem - lack of acceptance of our way of living and loving in wider society. We do not need to understand the intricacies of each other's way of expression to understand that we all face the same problem. Any part of the BDSM community could claim that others do not understand their way of expressing themselves, and they do, regularly, it is not the sole territory of M/s or D/s people. The foot fetishists complain that other BDSM-ers dont get them. Leather people complain that other BDSM-ers don't get them. Age players complain that others don't get them. Switches complain that others don't get them. The role players don't understand lifestylers. And so on. We are each part of (a) sub category/ies and each part of 'the others'. By continuing to sub categorise, firstly we propose the impossible because many people belong to more than one sub category and most importantly we dilute our power. While we are busy not understanding each other, what we all do understand is that our sexuality and lifestyle is not understood, accepted, insome cases legal, or welcome to wider society. To fight oppression of people because of their sexuality and lifestyle choices we need to focus on and highlight most of all our common ground, that the outside world is against all of us, that is what we need to fight, together, in solidarity. To do this we do not need to understand or even endorse each others specific way, as long as it is between adults and consensual. The instinct to fight within instead of fighintg wider society occurs in all communities where activism needs to happen, partly because it is easier to fight with each other than wider society,partly because it is hard for us who understand the diversity of our community to understand that wider society does not see our rich colours. And whilst we're all busy trying to get the others within our community to understand us, the bombs continue to drop outside. Most of all, we learn more to understand each other whilst fighting in solidarity, just by being together and building the understanding of our common ground. It teaches us more than anything and is far less threatening than challenging each other. This is not intended to excuse the awful things said by one part of the BDSM community to another on a regular basis, but I think the issue of acceptance in wider society is a far wider and more damaging issue than this and in comparison, the two problems are hardly comparable given the difference in effect. I do not think we can fix the problems we face in the outside world by facing inward when we charge. De Mistress_Tiara wrote: A community continuum? My boy started a thread on the reactions of society to people in power exchange relationships recently. His question was essentially 'would you like to be more open if societal norms allowed'? In the thread the issue of the scope of societal disapproval, and the extent to which it is feared was raised. I think this was an interesting subject and would like to look at it again a little more here. Fear of oppression, or tangible acts of oppression seem to frequently concern people in our community. While we may of course take the perspective that we can all shout 'We're here! We're kinky! We're Proud!' for many people this seems not to be perceived as an option, as the costs to their lives that could be incurred are simply too high. This therefore appears to leave the majority of us with the option of simply navigating life as best we can, and hoping not to have to compromise ourselves too much. Fearing the repression of societal tyranny – lost careers, compromised parenting, the safety of our children or families being jeopardised, lost reputation and friendships or family relationships, legal sanctions, medical sanctions, etc – as a community many of us opt for a degree of discretion. This is seen by many people to effectively be a breech of our civil liberties and human rights. Fearing repression and stigmatisation, and censored by the implicit and explicit threats made by those in positions of power, many people feel marginalised in a way that if not careful, leaves us both vulnerable and isolated. Such acts of censorship on the part of those in power seem to me to be the result of a desire to regulate the lives of other people they hold in contempt, but whatever their motivation, while legal statutes such as the UK spanner laws http://www.spannertrust.org/default.asp exist, such threats are real. While there are of course BDSM activist groups we can all support, to a degree these organisations (though excellent and well worth offering our support to), are perhaps not always designed with people in M/s in mind however. People in M/s, or the more intense forms of D/s, often have less than imagined in common with people who identify with other forms of BDSM. As full time power exchange is by it's very nature, not a state which tends toward frequent public congregation and practice, this leaves people who live in this way with very little opportunity to interact and form friendships and support networks. The internet is probably the main area which allows us to form these support networks. It has been for me, and for many other people I'm sure. People in M/s are thus effectively a minority in a minority in a minority in a minority in a minority….. As such I would suggest those in M/s can be a more vulnerable sector of the community than many others. I would thus suggest that (perhaps sometimes unintentional) discrimination or censorship within the broader BDSM/ power exchange community is an under recognised issue for people living in M/s. Referencing our lifestyle on many BDSM websites routinely leads to us being castigated as dangerous/ freaks/ extremists/ fantasists/ psychologically unbalanced etc, which after a while gets tiring. I personally believe that this is short-sighted of those members of the BDSM community who do this; not simply because of the impact on people in M/s, but because in todays hyper-mediatised environment, and with increasing encroachments on our civil liberties (see http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/ for examples) we are all becoming more vulnerable to outside intervention; and the issues that were once mostly feared are now becoming ever more tangible. While many people currently have a degree of tolerance for a married couple who may occasionally engage on a little spanking etc, far less people are liberal in their thinking about people engaged in full or significant power exchange. Those that are not offended by an M/s lifestyle are also even sometimes afraid to voice their support for our lifestyle in wider society, for fear of persecution themselves. It therefore seems to me that marginalisation of people in M/s from within parts of the wider BDSM scene not only impacts on those in M/s, it's actually a short sighted move for BDSMers as a whole. Keeping our fingers crossed and hoping those in authority – on either an official or simply influential level – simply do not choose to seek to disassociate themselves from, censor, or persecute us, is naïve and will I suspect, ultimately lead to wider spread censorship and intolerance. Once any precedent for ostracism, alienation, prosecution, censorship etc has been set, it is usually only a matter of time before it spreads unless people opt to work against it. Those in fuller power exchanges may make good tactical or political 'sacrifices' today, but the question for the more forward thinking BDSM community like many of you here, I'm sure then becomes what will follow tomorrow? I understand that censorship, and discrimination from outside the BDSM community is not something we can individually change in a tangible way (though joining civil liberties groups etc is of course always a worthwhile option). Censorship, lack of respect for community diversity, and marginalisation from within the BDSM community itself however, is something it seems to me that we would all benefit from actively rejecting, if not out of unity, then simply to attempt to prevent a premise that may spread if allowed to go unchecked. I would be interested to hear others viewpoints on this matter. I look forward to any responses. I realise this is a lengthy post so well done to any brave souls who have made it to the end Best wishes, Tiara Edited 21 Apr 09, 6:28 AM by Degenerate 21 Apr 09, 6:52 AM M_Shea US(CA), 3 yrs Degenerate wrote: (A great deal of intelligent discourse only not added to avoid excessive scrolling) I really ought to be studying for my midterm on Wed, so I'll keep this brief: Could it not be MT's point that we (if I may be so bold as to include my slave and I despite our newbishness) need to convince the other aspects of BDSM that we are all indeed a part of a whole, so that we may face the outside as a united front? I think that you're both essentially saying the same things, but perhaps with a different emphasis. Did I read either/both of you incorrectly? -Shea 21 Apr 09, 7:34 AM blue_girl US, 3 yrs Mistress_Tiara wrote: A community continuum? <snip> I would thus suggest that (perhaps sometimes unintentional) discrimination or censorship within the broader BDSM/ power exchange community is an under recognised issue for people living in M/s. Referencing our lifestyle on many BDSM websites routinely leads to us being castigated as dangerous/ freaks/ extremists/ fantasists/ psychologically unbalanced etc, which after a while gets tiring. Absolutely. This is social exclusion theory at its best: the larger BDSM community, i think, actually defines itself in part by its separateness from those who practice M/s. They point to the fact that BDSM is “just temporary,” and “role-playing,” and because it's SSC, nobody “really” gets hurt. i recently read a smart, theoretical book (“A Defense of Masochism” by Anita Phillips) that was ground-breaking, academically speaking, but which frustrated me because of the author's dependence upon the temporary, scene-based nature of BDSM. Of masochists, for example, she says, “It is about being hurt in exactly the right way and at the right time, in a sophisticated, highly artificial scenario” when “the masochist has initiated a highly controlled situation involving bondage and pseudo-domination” (14). She points out that because of the use of safe words, contracts, and SSC as its fundamental qualifier, BDSM is really no more 'freaky' than the playing out of any other psycho-sexual fantasy. In other words, it's okay because it's all just pretend. As i read, i kept thinking what a narrow view of masochism she perpetuated. Clearly, her definition was true for her, as well as for countless others, i'm sure, who “play” in the “scene,” but i felt utterly excluded from her “defense” because unlike her, i don't have safe words or contracts, and there's nothing artificial or sophisticated or temporary about my relationship or my masochistic desires. Left out of her defense, i evidently either fall into the category of 'victim' of patriarchal violence or i'm mentally ill. Thus, while i applaud Phillips' efforts to lay some of the groundwork that may make BDSM more palatable to the vanilla community at large, it's also unfortunately at the expense of those of us who eschew the SSC mantra and scene-play to embrace a 24/7 TPE. We become the ones that even the “freaks” point to as “freaks,” and because our relationships can't be relegated to the realm of fantasy in the same way that BDSM can be, our existence could otherwise potentially hinder the BDSM community's attempts to be more unobjectionable to an increasingly tolerant mainstream. I personally believe that this is short-sighted of those members of the BDSM community who do this; not simply because of the impact on people in M/s, but because in todays hyper-mediatised environment, and with increasing encroachments on our civil liberties (see http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/ for examples) we are all becoming more vulnerable to outside intervention; and the issues that were once mostly feared are now becoming ever more tangible. <snip> i agree that it's short-sighted of them, but with the recent election of Obama, the U.S. has actually begun to make a quick and dramatic shift left in social policies and tolerance in recent months. As a college Lecturer, i see much greater levels of tolerance in the groups of young people filing into my classroom this year even than last. Greater tolerance is obviously better for any group functioning outside of the mainstream, and will hopefully lead to less criminalization of consensual activities related to M/s relationships and BDSM practices. We'll probably always be considered “freaks,” but perhaps we won't always face the legal and social repercussions You describe in your post. i'm not naïve, merely hopeful, because as Martin Luther King once said, “Everything that is done in the world is done by hope.” ~blue~ "I was being called to surrender the very citadel of my self. I was completely in the dark. I did not really know what repentance was or what I was required to repent of. It was indeed the turning point of my life." --Bede Griffiths 21 Apr 09, 8:45 AM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Degenerate wrote: dividing and sub dividing communities destroys collective power. Because it's a very small army if you fight this way. Because it is picking the weaker less dangerous enemy over the one who threatens our lives. Because fighting with each other is what those who oppress like to encourage. I'm in full agreement Degenerate. This is why I believe marginalising the 'minority in a minority' is both damaging, and a naive thing for the rest of the community continuum to do. Thanks to everyone for their interesting comments so far 21 Apr 09, 10:43 AM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Mistress_Tiara wrote: Degenerate wrote: dividing and sub dividing communities destroys collective power. Because it's a very small army if you fight this way. Because it is picking the weaker less dangerous enemy over the one who threatens our lives. Because fighting with each other is what those who oppress like to encourage. I'm in full agreement Degenerate. This is why I believe marginalising the 'minority in a minority' is both damaging, and a naive thing for the rest of the community continuum to do. Creating spaces which feel hostile to people on the edge looking in, helps foster those divisions. Creating spaces with fuzzy boundaries but clearly defined concepts at the core breaks down those divisions and welcomes people to enter as far as they are comfortable. As an example, we have a clear definition of ownership ("Ownership is the enduring authority to control and use for one's own purposes that which is owned. In D/s and M/s, ownership amounts to a transfer of authority over the submissive or slave which is veto-less and inescapable") but a more encompassing definition of possession ("Possession is having control and use for one's own purposes of that which is possessed, and involves some or all of the rights associated with property ownership.") Building a M/s+D/s space which gets a reputation for snide comments about other types of BDSM helps produce the marginalisation that you're objecting to in your OP. Undoing that helps. It does also feel things are getting better in the wider BDSM scene. In point of fact, IC has been quite gratifying recently, including this recent thread: "sub/ bottom vs slave". It starts out with some drunken 3am comments from someone who didn't get it at all, but the replies steer it onto a broad consensus that's pretty good - certainly on the "slave = owned" point. The consensus certainly isn't that M/s is done by abusive whackos. Tanos www.tanos.org.uk www.bridgewood.org.uk www.twitter.com/ukTanos Edited 21 Apr 09, 10:48 AM by Tanos 21 Apr 09, 10:44 AM maidie UK, 3 yrs Mistress_Tiara wrote: I understand that censorship, and discrimination from outside the BDSM community is not something we can individually change in a tangible way (though joining civil liberties groups etc is of course always a worthwhile option). Censorship, lack of respect for community diversity, and marginalisation from within the BDSM community itself however, is something it seems to me that we would all benefit from actively rejecting, if not out of unity, then simply to attempt to prevent a premise that may spread if allowed to go unchecked. With my friends, I'm pretty open, and have been for the last couple of years. There are differing levels of "getting it", and I can sense differing levels of "approval" - but all of my old (read: non-kinky) friends have now met my owners, seen us together, respect the dynamic, and it all seems to swim along happily. The same is true for my "kinky" friends who don't pursue D/s except within roleplay scenes - there are exactly the same varying levels of approval there too. Which leads me to believe that whether someone indulges in BDSM or not makes no difference as to how they'll feel about 24/7 D/s (my own flavour of relationship). What am I doing about it? Well, I try to counter questions and arguments with the truth, in the nicest possible way. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "Yes, but it's not maintainable, is it?" and the assumption that I'm chained to the sink all the time rather than going to the supermarket or watching telly - and the main proponent of this argument is a fervent BDSM-er. But I think my main weapon is happiness. All my friends see just how much this suits me, how happy and supported I am, and you can see (and indeed hear) them thinking, "Well, it can't be all bad then, can it?" Personally, I don't need any more than that. I don't need them to be fervent D/s or M/s banner wavers - just acceptance and tolerance is fine by me. Likewise, as someone who occupies more space on "the other site" I do find myself occasionally sticking my oar in when 24/7 D/s or M/s is challenged or misunderstood; there was a thread only a few days ago where a self-confessed "only a bit kinky" guy said "all this is wrong", but instead of getting irate and trying to re-educate him, I just gently suggested he leave the D/s and M/s board alone. Again, my own personal approach isn't to evangelise, just get people to be accepting, tolerant, and non-critical. However... I'm about to start a new job. As I used to work with friends, I was open at work before... I'm now in the position of deciding my policy in this one. I think life is a little trickier yet because of having two owners - so I'm afraid for now I'm taking the route of cowardice (I prefer to think of it as discretion!) that I shall be quite terse about my private life and keep it all private. I feel a little uncomfortable about that, I'd much rather be open, because I know it helps de-mystify and normalise, and I also know that what I do (and who I am) is entirely healthy and good for me and works well. But I have no desire to shock or upset or surprise. Well, not in the first week, anyway . 21 Apr 09, 12:04 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Tanos wrote: Mistress_Tiara wrote: Degenerate wrote: dividing and sub dividing communities destroys collective power. Because it's a very small army if you fight this way. Because it is picking the weaker less dangerous enemy over the one who threatens our lives. Because fighting with each other is what those who oppress like to encourage. I'm in full agreement Degenerate. This is why I believe marginalising the 'minority in a minority' is both damaging, and a naive thing for the rest of the community continuum to do. Creating spaces which feel hostile to people on the edge looking in, helps foster those divisions. Creating spaces with fuzzy boundaries but clearly defined concepts at the core breaks down those divisions and welcomes people to enter as far as they are comfortable. As an example, we have a clear definition of ownership ("Ownership is the enduring authority to control and use for one's own purposes that which is owned. In D/s and M/s, ownership amounts to a transfer of authority over the submissive or slave which is veto-less and inescapable") but a more encompassing definition of possession ("Possession is having control and use for one's own purposes of that which is possessed, and involves some or all of the rights associated with property ownership.") Building a M/s+D/s space which gets a reputation for snide comments about other types of BDSM helps produce the marginalisation that you're objecting to in your OP. Undoing that helps. It does also feel things are getting better in the wider BDSM scene. In point of fact, IC has been quite gratifying recently, including this recent thread: "sub/ bottom vs slave". It starts out with some drunken 3am comments from someone who didn't get it at all, but the replies steer it onto a broad consensus that's pretty good - certainly on the "slave = owned" point. The consensus certainly isn't that M/s is done by abusive whackos. Tanos Yes I agree with you Tanos. In this vein, I have been wondering this week after organising something separate locally to meet other (non roleplay) D/s and M/s people, whether what we really need to do is encourage each other out to the existing events more. It has occurred to me that although sometimes we feel a little freakish at places like the club I regularly visit, (because many there appear on the surface to be interested more in sensation play, role play, kinky sex or dressing up, than lifestyle stuff) that other D/s and M/s people must be there too, but that they are maybe not as obvious to us (after all how obvious are the subtleties of anyone's life outside a social event?). I am wondering if it is a better move to make more effort to seek out other D/s and M/s people within that group and make friends and, if I can think of ways, to encourage more D/s and M/s people to come out to such events. We are a little freakish to some and raise the odd eyebrow when our dynamic becomes more apparent as not just play, but nonetheless, we happily co-exist every month (helped no doubt by my interest in dressing up and SM) and I think I feel just as valid occupying space there as myself as everyone else. I do not find the differences intimidating, as I know management is on the side of diversity, and wonder if sometimes the intimidation people feel comes from inside and from their own prejudice about 'the others' which exacerbates the gap between us. And yes, like others here may have also done, I've been in BDSM space where our D/s dynamic is understood by some as abusive, and I know how much it hurts. However, it hurts no more or less than rolling up to a space which is for D/s and M/s people and which feels like we are not welcome to some there either. I agree that how we set the boundaries of special interest groups within BDSM community makes a good deal of difference to the overall atmosphere of being part of something bigger. The boundaries between types of people are not clear cut or rigid and there's no good reason to cut them with a knife edge and protect them with electric fences, as it just creates gaps for things and people to fall down.. our people. A rainbow is partly beautiful for it's bold individual colours, but also for the subtle way it blends one into the other. Otherwise it would look like... erm.. well.. a flag. (I knew trying to be profound and metaphoric was a mistake ) In solidarity, De Next page