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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Ethical Ownership" 1 2 Ethical Ownership (14) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. 23 Apr 09, 4:16 PM Ms_Valentine UK, 4 yrs I honestly have observed that there are quite marked differences between the ways a Dominant and a subs gender seems to affect their relationship at quite core levels. I often hear of female subs/slaves being subject to courses of improvement, development, of having been 'saved from themselves' by their Dom/Master etc. You rarely hear that talked of by female Dominants and their male subs/slaves. They may need training to stop masturbating and accept chastity or at least sexual control but mostly they seem to be viewed by their Dominant differently or used diffrently to how female subs/slaves are. Why? Maybe I am lucky, or maybe I am unusual or maybe I a just completely unaware of what subs/slaves need and I have missed the point. My sub is extremely low maintenance and yet extremely good at all the things which matter to me. I am certainly not a service Domme. My sub gets to endure my sadism whether he likes it or not. His life revolves around my comfort, happiness and pleasure. His happiness comes chiefly from knowing that he is doing the best he can do for me. He knows that I am very aware what his needs and wants are and generally he is allowed his wants when he is being his usual good self. If he errs he is punished and some privileges may be removed. It is that simple. I don't have a programme of training or courses of improvements for him to undertake. He is skilled domestically to a reasonable standard, excellent at all DIY, good with cars and an excellent driver should I want to be driven by him, excellent at social and other organisation, resourceful, with no bad habits like gambling or excessive drinking to break and he is emotionally healthy with good sense of self esteem. There is nothing much that can be improved upon, not fundamentally. So, I am at a loss as to know what 'growth and development' needs he might have specifically as my sub which I do not have or he would have just as a regular human being. 23 Apr 09, 6:39 PM Red_Spark UK, 5 yrs I think it's a matter of considering everything in relation to 'the big picture'! For example, a good hard caning on the whim of the M-type might hardly *seem* to be in the slave's best interests (if the slave is not a masochist, and it is not intended as a punishment either) - but what would be the long term effects? Maybe 'serious loss of confidence by the slave' - but may equally well be nothing significant at all! (The caning is just an example - needn't necessarily be something physical.) Something else might be a lot more serious, such as demanding your slave give up their job, or take on a certain job, which kind of thing is likely to have a much greater impact (one way or the other) on their well-being (mental and physical). (It's worth bearing in mind that the little things can have a cumulative effect too... and to keep an eye on that, because that in its way can turn out just as serious as fucking up big-time.) Edited to respond to Ms Valentine: So, I am at a loss as to know what 'growth and development' needs he might have specifically as my sub which I do not have or he would have just as a regular human being. Hear hear, I feel the same! However, I don't really separate out 'slaveness' and 'real life' - just consider it as part of my responsibility to help/support/ensure needs met for whatever growth and development - as a regular human being. Edited 23 Apr 09, 6:41 PM by Red_Spark 23 Apr 09, 9:14 PM MasterRagnarok US(FL), 5 yrs Y! I have two responses. If a slave is simply property - well, I like nice things, and I like to keep the things I have nice. I would no more leave a slave without clothes in the cold than I would leave My laptop out in the rain. It's mine, I like it - I want to take good care of it. In terms of the health and well being/growth of the slave - it all goes back to serving Me. If My slave quits cigarettes and is healthier , she can do more without getting out of breath . If she has cavities she's never taken care of and is in constant pain - a trip to the dentist, will, in the end, make her a slave who is better able to focus and attend to My needs. I don't think a Master should do everything for the slave's growth and health, as He has the power to do as He pleases and should exercise this power. However , I fail to see how helping a slave grow and develop can result in anything but a better level of servitude. Ragnarok P.S. I use Master/she as the Generic - of course this applies to Mistresses/He as well. 23 Apr 09, 9:37 PM kaitlyn 4 yrs MasterRagnarok wrote: I have two responses. If a slave is simply property - well, I like nice things, and I like to keep the things I have nice. I would no more leave a slave without clothes in the cold than I would leave My laptop out in the rain. It's mine, I like it - I want to take good care of it. In terms of the health and well being/growth of the slave - it all goes back to serving Me. If My slave quits cigarettes and is healthier , she can do more without getting out of breath . If she has cavities she's never taken care of and is in constant pain - a trip to the dentist, will, in the end, make her a slave who is better able to focus and attend to My needs. I don't think a Master should do everything for the slave's growth and health, as He has the power to do as He pleases and should exercise this power. However , I fail to see how helping a slave grow and develop can result in anything but a better level of servitude. Ragnarok P.S. I use Master/she as the Generic - of course this applies to Mistresses/He as well. Well put. This is how I view the subject. 24 Apr 09, 1:05 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Ms_Valentine wrote: You rarely hear that talked of by female Dominants and their male subs/slaves. They may need training to stop masturbating and accept chastity or at least sexual control but mostly they seem to be viewed by their Dominant differently or used diffrently to how female subs/slaves are. Why? I think it may be biology, but only in a small part. For the most, I think it's a result of standard gender role expectations and perceptions. Ms_Valentine wrote: So, I am at a loss as to know what 'growth and development' needs he might have specifically as my sub which I do not have or he would have just as a regular human being. Red_Spark wrote: Hear hear, I feel the same! However, I don't really separate out 'slaveness' and 'real life' - just consider it as part of my responsibility to help/support/ensure needs met for whatever growth and development - as a regular human being. Yes. Red_Spark wrote: I think it's a matter of considering everything in relation to 'the big picture'! For example, a good hard caning on the whim of the M-type might hardly *seem* to be in the slave's best interests (if the slave is not a masochist, and it is not intended as a punishment either) - but what would be the long term effects? In my case, C's expressions of sadism (he isn't much for caning but he does enjoy an equivalent) aren't geared toward my best interest, but they aren't practiced in disregard of them either. We both entered our relationship feeling I was capable of learning an emotionally healthy acceptance of it and I have done so. And because there is no harm for me in it, another good part is that my acceptance of it is a gesture of love and caring for him, rather than a slavish tolerance of him. It's important to me. Eva (The property formerly known as Camille )