This page sponsored by JT's Stockroom    [other banners]

	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Theory ?'s: IE and EE, 24/7 D/s and literal slaves" 1 2 Theory ?'s: IE and EE, 24/7 D/s and literal slaves (20) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 19 Feb 09, 4:52 PM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Degenerate wrote: Maybe the real problem here is we need to live together, to be who we are with each other. Hope not cos we can't! There are lots of ways of doing D/s (and M/s in some people's terminologies) that don't involve any of this though: people that base it all on submissives giving their word for instance. Don't fall into the trap of fitting your relationship to one set of tools for doing D/s. What you need to decide it what you want it to look like, and then find what is needed to get there. Maybe I need to calm down on bending her mind so much given our position. if indeed that is what has happened. Shit. Now I read like a terrible ... person. No you don't. It's not as if you're making her vulnerable and then shutting her out when she needs you. You said she's pulling back, after all. Personally, from what you've said about your relationship and the degree of commitment I know* you have, I would say it would be entirely ethical to get all the control that's on offer. (* Since it's not obvious from her profile, De and I have never met as such, but we've been in the same room enough times, have a bunch of mutual friends, and live in the same city.) Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk www.bridgewood.org.uk www.twitter.com/ukTanos Edited 19 Feb 09, 4:55 PM by Tanos 19 Feb 09, 5:01 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Tanos wrote: Degenerate wrote: it's like I need a whole nother word for it. submissive doesnt seem to cover this particularly dependant state she arrived at.. she has pulled back as it caused a crisis That deciding to pull back thing is how you know it's not IE btw, and not living together gives her lots of places to pull back into. I have misrepresented what occurred above :-O Actually this problematic time came right after a great time and started with her saying she was struggling with feelings of wanting to get away from the D/s, but she can't and when we discussed it clearly doesn't want to really (but it is challenging in some ways, she's just not used to it). - this turns out to be related to the responsibilities she took on with my family that I never asked her to & referred to in another thread. Then she told me something she had done which I was extremely unhappy about and we realised she was in a bad way psychologically and wasn't coping well at home. At which point she was pushed back into her own space and both physically and metaphorically out of mine temporarily, so we could get on top of things. So really, it's me that did it. Not sure what difference this makes to the overall issues. Gawd I hate hanging my laundry in public but we really need to get a handle on what has gone on here and I am spilling over a bit. The question has been in a way is a developing sense of IE pulling her into my home. But we cannot do it. Edited 19 Feb 09, 5:02 PM by Degenerate 19 Feb 09, 5:03 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs adding to this - "So really, it's me that did it. Not sure what difference this makes to the overall issues. " There seemed no other way - as she wasn't coping either here or there in practical terms in a way either of us could be happy with. I felt the only thing to do was take time out to deal with my feelings and give her time at home to get back on top of things. Edited 19 Feb 09, 5:04 PM by Degenerate 19 Feb 09, 5:25 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Tanos wrote: Degenerate wrote: Maybe the real problem here is we need to live together, to be who we are with each other. Hope not cos we can't! There are lots of ways of doing D/s (and M/s in some people's terminologies) that don't involve any of this though: people that base it all on submissives giving their word for instance. Don't fall into the trap of fitting your relationship to one set of tools for doing D/s. What you need to decide it what you want it to look like, and then find what is needed to get there. Maybe I need to calm down on bending her mind so much given our position. if indeed that is what has happened. Shit. Now I read like a terrible ... person. No you don't. It's not as if you're making her vulnerable and then shutting her out when she needs you. You said she's pulling back, after all. Personally, from what you've said about your relationship and the degree of commitment I know* you have, I would say it would be entirely ethical to get all the control that's on offer. (* Since it's not obvious from her profile, De and I have never met as such, but we've been in the same room enough times, have a bunch of mutual friends, and live in the same city.) Regards, Tanos Oh thanks for saying this Tanos. I do agree what matters now is that I use whatever power and tools I have to make things right. I need to make it be as it was supposed to somehow. Maybe how to define this state matters far less than I think . Hmm maybe I have shut her out, but I did not really know what else to do. And I did not know we had been in the same room! It would be cool to say hello next time I would love to meet you actually. De Edited 19 Feb 09, 5:28 PM by Degenerate 19 Feb 09, 5:37 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs anjuli wrote: I'm not sure I can address all your questions but one jumps out at me... Can people who are just submitting feel unable to leave? No. I don't think that's possible. IF you retain control of your life. If you own your own assets, earn your own money and control your life and negotiate your limits and scenes, you're looking at ongoing voluntary submission and IE is incompatible with that. IE only happens when you have nowhere to hide... not even in your own head. But honestly De, I don't think the answer is here... it's in her head. And I think you have to unpick that and decide where the truth lies. There are so many possibilities from she's become dependant and wants you to take all control and therefore subconsiously has made a decision to fuck it up so you will... to well I don't know but you see where I'm headed. Please, that's not meant to be rude. I have no idea what's in lucy's head so I wouldn't presume, I am just trying to demonstrate a point. As to whether you have a case, or even the first case of 'sub self-control collapse' or 'involuntary dependence' I think you've got to deal with the realities. I suspect that part of the reason why there is this belief that IE is only possible in a co-resident situation is that it's impossible to maintain without that kind of total enmeshment of your lives. It's only with that that it can begin to build the strength to stay in place without your presence. A bit like a cake rising but collapsing if you open the oven door too early... you have to wait til that structure is strong enough to stand alone before you can take the heat away and check if it's cooked. Apologies for the lame metaphor! <laughs> It ran away with me there. Submission and the desire for its intensity and dislike of letting it go in order to deal with the realities and cold of the world outside are totally understandable to me. I can tell you for certain that I frequently felt very wobbly leaving J after we'd had time together before he brought me to live with him. Perhaps it's a sort of extended sub-drop if a name helps? She's having trouble coming back into possession of her own mind. And if so does that make it easier to see what to do? anjuli Edited to add a laugh at 'dependence'. We posted that at the same time. I am going to read this ten times and have a good think about this it is inetresting and possible I think. this leaves me questioning whether I have too much control outside here, or not enough. lucy has various full time things in place which are ongoing submissions. Maybe it is too much to be comfortable in this living situation. or maybe further control outside here will help it. But can it stay content there. is another question. De Edited 19 Feb 09, 5:39 PM by Degenerate 19 Feb 09, 6:21 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Okay I will leave you with one final post to add to the thinking pile. Will it be enough? That's for you to decide not her. In our dynamic I have these melt-downs where I feel J's not controlling me enough. Needless to say the last thing he does is to allow that to drive him. He gets me clearer about how much control is in place and how un-vanilla it really is, and then refocuses me on him rather than myself. Makes me happier every damn time, dammit! <laughs> I'd not try to work on it from there tho. As Tanos said you need to decide what you want it to look like and take all the limitations into consideration and then work on making it so rather than reverse engineering by level of control, if that makes sense? Either way , you don't need us to tell you you're not going to achieve it if you don't know what IT is. More or less control? All depends on the above. Plus you might need to factor in a certain amount of caution. I have to say that before we were able to be living together J was super-cautious, probably for these very reasons you've fallen over. Perhaps you have to wind back, refocus and then work out how much you can apply before you cripple her and start bending her away from being honest and healthy in her submission to you? Hope things do work out for you both. anjuli ps. And I agree that you don't sound like a bad person. Pushing her back is probably tough on both of you but you do need clear vision before you can step in and put it right or you will just go on drowning in this... and you're definitely working on that so how is it bad? You're not kicking her out of your life because you don't care are you? As long as you put her together again and restart on a more realistic basis I'm sure all will be well. There's no immunity to mistakes or slip ups for dominants any more than there is for subs, what matters is keeping your head and taking care of a situation you've created even if you have to make space to get your head together first in order to do that responsibly. *** The quality of strength lined with tenderness is an unbeatable combination, as are intelligence and necessity when unblunted by formal education. *** Maya Angelou *** 19 Feb 09, 7:26 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Degenerate wrote: Gah I have a real problem here cos something has happened with my girl which is.. it just doesn't seem to be encompassed by the terms I normally understand D/s and separate living, but she appears to feel owned, or at least I understand as feeling owned and I have done a lot of things which I know have created this bond, whatever it is. whatever it should be called. it's like I need a whole nother word for it. submissive doesnt seem to cover this particularly dependant state she arrived at.. she has pulled back as it caused a crisis but once it's over I feel she'll drift back here, we've seen this pattern before. [snip] Maybe I need to calm down on bending her mind so much given our position. if indeed that is what has happened. Shit. Now I read like a terrible ... person. I think it's unreasonable for you to feel that you've done "wrong" in that you could/should have known of this before it happened - as in you are either completely responsible for having caused or preventing it. To do so would be a faulty estimation of both your power and hers. IE is far from an understood science and my feeling is that this situation probably has as much to do with personal characteristics of you and your partner as things of IE. Situations resulting from close personal interaction happen every day, regardless of the nature of the relationship. It's unfortunate that things are so often a case of remedy before prevention but that's the way of it. It's clear that you're motivated to prevent this from continuing or recurring - that's the important thing and very often the best a person can do. Camille Edited 19 Feb 09, 8:07 PM by EvaMaria 20 Feb 09, 3:30 AM Master_Teel US(TX), 4 yrs Truthfully, I see this pulling back as a normal process in the natural progression of a person entering into an enslavement relationship. For many slaves, there comes a point (hopefully during training and before collaring, but not always) where the slave becomes aware that it really is real and that they are losing control over their life. For some slaves, this is a scary thing and they will pull back. They start to question if whether or not this really is what they want after all. These are healthy questions to deal with early on in the relatioship, and worked through properly so that your slave can comfortably let go of control and relinquish it to you without reservation. Master_Teel Use Google to search SD: http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=+site:se... 20 Feb 09, 11:26 PM pinklucy UK, 3 yrs Master_Teel wrote: Truthfully, I see this pulling back as a normal process in the natural progression of a person entering into an enslavement relationship. For many slaves, there comes a point (hopefully during training and before collaring, but not always) where the slave becomes aware that it really is real and that they are losing control over their life. For some slaves, this is a scary thing and they will pull back. They start to question if whether or not this really is what they want after all. These are healthy questions to deal with early on in the relatioship, and worked through properly so that your slave can comfortably let go of control and relinquish it to you without reservation. Master_Teel Are you looking in my head Master Teel?....... 21 Feb 09, 10:43 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs All you need to do is decide how to proceed from here. Forget sticking a label on anything for now, decide what you want, then if you're interested find which label fits afterwards. All serious power exchange relationships involve the s-type having a panic every now and then, often accompanied by various other emotional issues. That's entirely normal human behaviour. If you felt you were losing your freedom you'd probably panic too (it may be worth you reading up on reactance). As long as you show your s-type that you are going to steer this and any other situations, and do so safely, honourably and firmly, you will probably find that once she comes out the other side of her 'meltdown' she will feel much calmer, happier and safer, and things will move forward peacefully and well... ...until the next bump, which you will then also steer and handle 'If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again'. Sojourner Truth.