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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Emotional masochists, independence and IE" 1 2 Emotional masochists, independence and IE (14) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Mon 16 Feb 09, 1:23 AM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Hi there, another post asking for help and advice from more experienced people. My girl was previously someone who liked to roleplay M/s and enjoyed degradation play in a highly fetishistic way. In our relationship, it was clear really early on that it ran deeper than that and she had capacity for what we think is IE, or rather, it was beginning to happen anyway. The line between fantasy and reality disappeared for us a long time ago and everything we do is just variations in protocol. Whilst trying to build on that gradually and responsibly, we have also continued to play out themes involving various emotional masochism subject matter during our high protocol time. This has never been a problem for her in previous relationships, and I have kept it to areas in which there was no apparent insecurity on her part. Mainly doing it because I know it excites her, so it's part of the process of holding her enchantment, I think. However, we have had some recent problems with her making changes in her mindset which she knows I would like were they good or natural for her and her circumstances, but which really are not good for her overall, and I would never ask of her. Without my instruction, and on a fairly subconscious level. She has been trying to be what she saw as more perfect, to please me, in a way I would never have wanted her to do simply because I know it would be bad for her. This has led to her feeling discontent and depressed when she had to acknowledge it wasn't either possible or positive for her, and I have somehow completely missed that it was happening, she was trying to change and failing elsewhere (and is now miserable). After weeks of trying to work though this and work out why she did it, it became clear she thinks my opinion of her is quite low (quite the opposite is true, naturally). Smelling a rat and with suspicions already, I picked at this a bit further and when she described her understanding of how I view her, I noted immediately some themes from our degradation play scenes, in particular some newer ones which I had reflected/incorporated thinking they were fair (safe) game as it was her language (eg selfish, lazy). I asked if she had insecurities about some of these things already, which I was not aware of - and she did, but did not realise they would become problematic as they had never been problematic before which is why she had not told me (I would never play on a genuine insecurity in that way for a fantasy scene!!). I never thought for a second she would take something from a very specific high protocol situation (eg saying she is lazy or thoughtless for not putting something away) and then apply it as a rule to her whole life (that she must become a super being and do the impossible to not be lazy as a person in general). Anyway! Some questions. If someone is developing IE do we have to abandon some of this kind of intense fetishistic play because it's incompatible, as there is no fantasy space to leave it behind in? Is this just stupidity/inexperience on my part or can this be avoided by sticking to things which aren't real insecurities? Does the feeling of enslavement directly contradict a desire to be independent in some areas? ) I have presumed I can make it part of her service, and thought I had done, but clearly I hadn't done it well enough!)? I am particularly worried about that one, as one of the consequences of her trying to change herself was that she was not paying attention to her necessary levels of independence from me (we do not live together) and it was having a negative effect on her life. I don't think she was doing it deliberately, but this all shows how powerful her desire to please is becoming. Unfortunately what she has done broke several rules and has been bad for her and that is not remotely pleasing. There are two issues here - was she trying to be someone which does not suit her because she was feeling degraded for real, or just because she is feeling enslaved - and how do I know for sure apart from continuing to talk to her and make informed decisions. Can it be both? I would be really grateful if anyone is willing to share any thoughts on this. I know my girl wants to post as well, but I am too impatient to wait and read her thread. (if you are reading this, 987-429-631, please go ahead and post your own thread as we most likely have a different perspective on this and I think it is a good thing for you to have the opportunity to discuss it independently here). Thank you in advance De Edited Mon 16 Feb 09, 4:41 AM by Degenerate 16 Feb 09, 2:56 AM Master_Odin US(KS), 3 yrs Degenerate wrote: Emotional masochists, independence and IE I would be really grateful if anyone is willing to share any thoughts on this. I know my girl wants to post as well, but I am too impatient to wait and read her thread. (if you are reading this, 987-429-631, please go ahead and post your own thread as we most likely have a different perspective on this and I think it is a good thing for you to have the opportunity to discuss it independently here). Thank you in advance De This sounds very much like what nebulina and I went through. W/we began to develop IE before we found this site, before we had a lexicon to describe what we were experiencing. It seemed like 'all of the sudden' the least hint of displeasure from me, real or imagined, wrecked havoc with her self esteem, which I found out was much lower than previously realized. Once she had fully invested in me as the center of her world, my power increased exponentially * without my first being aware of the change*. As you also experienced, not being conscious of that power can have unintended consequences. I did have to back off, calm things down and rethink my approach. You need lots of communication and slow retraining until you get your sea legs again. In a way, your relationship is starting over. This time is a threshold, a milestone on your walk. It marks a significant evolution of your relationship, and brings home the point of just how much responsibility you have taken on. Not unlike the time the Dr. puts your first child in your arms and says, “Here, this is yours…..” There are folks here with much more experience and articulation than I that I hope will chime in soon, but you are not alone in this and you will probably get through it just fine. Selah There is no authority, only responsibility. 16 Feb 09, 3:58 AM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Oh thank you so much for your kind message I can't tell you what a relief it is for even one person to understand what I am concerned about and recognise this place! I knew I had a lot of power, I've been establishing it, but what I didn't realise was that I had less control over its repercussions than I thought I had and how far she might run with it on her own, especially as I feel as if I study her intently. Perhaps a little stupidly I presumed she wouldn't start to make unrequested changes, especially as matters concerning her necessary independence are explicitly prioritised in our 'training' contract. Luckily we're both sensible people who know we are working with delicate matters and aware we'll make mistakes along the way and learn lessons. Nobody's ego is in the way of this learning and we know we're in a process of joint exploration/training to learn our roles. So far the only thing we have actively done is totally stand still in all matters and talk again and again while we get a handle on what was wrong (that's taken weeks!) and now begin to explore what we need to do. Thank you again and as before I am really grateful if anyone has any comments. I have started reading up the literature linked from here about this process to see what else I can glean. De PS Another thought springs to mind here. This suggests to me she is mine to the point of helplessness. Perhaps it is time to recognise that she truly belongs to me, not just that we are training/learning how to get there (whether or not we thought she was ready yet)? Edited 17 Feb 09, 1:57 PM by Degenerate 16 Feb 09, 11:52 AM Master_Odin US(KS), 3 yrs Degenerate wrote: I knew I had a lot of power, I've been establishing it, but what I didn't realise was that I had less control over its repercussions than I thought I had and how far she might run with it on her own, especially as I feel as if I study her intently. Perhaps a little stupidly I presumed she wouldn't start to make unrequested changes, especially as matters concerning her necessary independence are explicitly prioritised in our 'training' contract. You both passed through the threshold into a new space. Each individual will react differently. Some will run and play and kick up their heels, some will slink along the walls, but each will have to take time and get used to the new space. Don't be too hard on yourself. Give yourselves time to "move in and make the house your home ". (Remember, your strength is her's now.) Degenerate wrote: PS Another thought springs to mind here. This suggests to me she is mine to the point of helplessness. Perhaps it is time to recognise that she truly belongs to me, not just that we are training/learning how to get there (whether or not we thought she was ready yet)? Maybe she is ready but I am not (ready, as in skilled enough to do this right)? Another fear of mine right now, is that we may have achieved IE and perhaps it just doesn't suit her as an individual or in her/our circumstances. Yes, she is completely yours. I understand being in awe of the power/responsibility, but remember: you and you alone had the skills to bring her to this point. You may not be an expert on IE, but you are the only living expert on her. Whether IE suits her or your circumstances really is a moot point, you are here. Take a deep breath and look forward. You can work through her personal issues and if you have to change circumstances you will just have to change circumstances. Not that it will always be easy, but most likely do-able. If you will pardon the pun, it can be lonely being a Top......(smirk) Good luck. Selah. There is no authority, only responsibility. 16 Feb 09, 11:56 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Thanks again for your supportive message, it's really helping make sense of things. Oh yes this feeling that now everything is down to me does feel somewhat lonely. I am concerned that I cannot even rely that I have a sensible answer from her anymore about how to proceed as she seems to just trust me to fix it somehow, and is just mine. She is doing well to get on top of matters in her own domain in this time of treading water. We have discussed today the possibility that I may now have to monitor/take (some?) responsibility for her independent life so it does not suffer at the hands of her prioritising me. This wasn't quite what we expected to be necessary. but when I think about it, it is irresponsible to continue to accept this level of dependence without exercising equivalent levels of jurisdiction in order to stop it being out of control. It seems that's what went wrong, I at some point gained a new responsibility but I didn't realise - had I known I could have prevented the recent problem in the first place. De 17 Feb 09, 12:43 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs Yes, it does happen that when the slave is fully owned, they internalize the master's priorities ... or, in some cases, what they think the master's priorities are or ought to be. That means that it's on the M-type to specifically lay out what the priorities are, sometimes right down to daily activities. Saying, "You're to be independent when I'm not around" may not work so well when you're the center of her universe. It's as if the sun goes out, you know? So you have to build her a flashlight, made of your rules, for the periods when she has to function on her own. Quite literally, the more slave she is, the more responsibility you have for her. And yes, your words have power, the power to shape her. If you say she's fat and ugly, she will internalize that. If you want to play with that in scene - and even if you want to work with it in controlled scenes that help her to work through that... ...it can be done, *but* you are going to have to set very good boundaries. You're going to have to create "time and space" that is understood to be "not part of reality" (and keep in mind that Reality for her is now being your slave), and I mean "understood" in the sense of using symbols that her unconscious will deeply understand. You'll have to figure out what those are, preferably with her help. Part of the exit-boundary for that scene needs to be something that drives home that she is a good slave, you are pleased with her, her willingness to go to hard places and then come back pleases you, and that you believe that she has the strength and resilience to see herself as a competent and valuable (and insert positive adjective of your choice) slave, and that this is how you see her in the future. I find that it's useful to say this in a firm voice while rhythmically stroking the slave's body, in the out-of-their-head submissive aftermath of a scene. You need to be speaking to her subconscious as well. But yes, role-play scenes need to be carefully boundaried so as not to intrude on real life. Real life is now her being your slave. In real life, you need to treat her in the most ethical way. This is where transparency comes in. Start training her to A) be completely honest and transparent with you, and B) be introspective so that she can better offer you her insides. Start asking questions like, "What have you been thinking about that you don't want to tell me?" Start conditioning her to be unable to be anything but honest when she answers. This will head off those "What do you mean you've been thinking X for two weeks and not telling me?" moments. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 17 Feb 09, 12:45 AM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs It seems you've gotten some support already, I just wanted to throw in some sympathy notes here. We've been going through the exact same problem, but in different areas. Master would say something, and I'd take it "too far" to heart or spin it, or something. Two remarkable enormous ones are: 1) that no opinion of mine can be simply my opinion, but I must add the words "I may be wrong" or something similar, so that if Master expresses another opinion on that topic, I can emmediately back down - then I'd feel guilty about not having shared his opinion to begin with. 2) Master has a saying. "If you can't fix it, don't worry about it. If you can fix it, don't worry about it." He also doesn't like to "just talk", but rather talks in order to fix a problem, and come up with a solution. I usually know the solution, but I want to talk about it thoroughly, before I feel ready to get to it and Do It. Heh. Anyone recognize that issue? Anway. His saying has in my head been turned into "If you can fix it, why talk about it? If you can't fix it, why talk about it?", basically preventing me from talking to him and opening up, in fear that it'd be whining or complaining or putting myself down, or a number of things my Owner doesn't want me to do. Also, why would I need to talk about it, if I can/can't fix it? "Get it over with/Accept it, and move the fuck on. No need to talk here!" Recently, we've started speaking about them. I finally recognized what they were and dared mention them to him (and I've had these beliefs for about a year, perhaps two, now!). So now I'm working at fixing them. There's a lot of hurt on Master's side, about how I can twist his words like that. He says what he means and means what he says, and in order to understand him, one needs to remember near verbatum (sp?) what he's said. Remembering the general gist wont do it. I suck at remembering his words, and usually transcribe into "Sanna-speak" to remember the gist of the conversation. That creates bunches of trouble in and of itself. Foremost, it makes Master feel he is not listened to, not heard, not respected, not loved. So now we've got years of our relationship to work through, patch and "fix". A lot of this boils down to my lack of self-esteem, which I'm sort of suprised at. It goes so far as to me just slapping my food on a plate, but organizing Master's! At me buying second hand and "crap" for myself, but getting the best for Master. That I think I'm not worth this or that, wether it be something I really want or a warm fluffy towel instead of a sandpaper one. So if anyone reading this misses me on the boards, I'm offline working at all of this, with my Woderful Master and my seriously lovable psychologist. Smile, it confuses people. 17 Feb 09, 4:06 AM Master_Odin US(KS), 3 yrs Degenerate wrote: She is doing well to get on top of matters in her own domain in this time of treading water. We have discussed today the possibility that I may now have to monitor/take (some?) responsibility for her independent life so it does not suffer at the hands of her prioritising me. De De, She doesn't have her own domain anymore. She doesn't have an independent life anymore. She has the life she lives for you in your presence and the life she lives for you outside your presence. It seems a daunting task at first but as Raven (who is always brilliant and spot on) said she needs you to structure these two lives. To what level you will have to determine. SixThreeFive has shared some insights from her life that may help you know what to keep an eye out for, just in case. It is an exciting time, perhaps a bit overwhelming at first, but take it slow, make the best decisions you can after gathering all the information available, and you will do fine. Selah There is no authority, only responsibility. 17 Feb 09, 2:00 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Thanking you all so much you have all things to say which are very helpful and certainly ring true at this end. More later about the specifics. This conversation has already been really helpful on a practical level. Just FYI my girl has now posted here, as realising where we are at has produced a conundrum of sorts, which I raised with her yesterday: http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/178455/ Edited 17 Feb 09, 8:02 PM by Degenerate 17 Feb 09, 10:21 PM 688-764-833 US, 5 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: ...it can be done, *but* you are going to have to set very good boundaries. You're going to have to create "time and space" that is understood to be "not part of reality" (and keep in mind that Reality for her is now being your slave), and I mean "understood" in the sense of using symbols that her unconscious will deeply understand. You'll have to figure out what those are, preferably with her help. Part of the exit-boundary for that scene needs to be something that drives home that she is a good slave, you are pleased with her, her willingness to go to hard places and then come back pleases you, and that you believe that she has the strength and resilience to see herself as a competent and valuable (and insert positive adjective of your choice) slave, and that this is how you see her in the future. I find that it's useful to say this in a firm voice while rhythmically stroking the slave's body, in the out-of-their-head submissive aftermath of a scene. You need to be speaking to her subconscious as well.... I think Raven's advice is excellent and just wanted to add a practical suggestion: maybe you could take the role play to more of an extreme: a specific costume, a wig, different make-up and a different name so that it's, say, "Suzanne" you are humiliating, maybe create "Suzanne" together, her personality, her vulnerabilities etc, and then when the scene is over, you literally and figuratively dismantle "Suzanne"? Just a thought.... Cheers, Leesie 18 Feb 09, 11:21 AM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: Yes, it does happen that when the slave is fully owned, they internalize the master's priorities ... or, in some cases, what they think the master's priorities are or ought to be. That means that it's on the M-type to specifically lay out what the priorities are, sometimes right down to daily activities. Saying, "You're to be independent when I'm not around" may not work so well when you're the center of her universe. It's as if the sun goes out, you know? So you have to build her a flashlight, made of your rules, for the periods when she has to function on her own. Ah what a brilliant metaphor to describe it! And this makes me think -- no wonder she hasn't done it already. For now i have given her a small relevant task to chart in a journal what's happening in one particular area while we are apart, which I think will help increase her mindfulness. I am thinking about what rules can be put in place now. ravenkaldera wrote: You're going to have to create "time and space" that is understood to be "not part of reality" (and keep in mind that Reality for her is now being your slave), and I mean "understood" in the sense of using symbols that her unconscious will deeply understand. You'll have to figure out what those are, preferably with her help. Oh of course! For us the thought of doing roleplay seems so far away from what we do now, but I am certain with some careful structure as you suggest, that could work and saves us from losing something my girl usually enjoys immensely, something I think is important for her. Thanks so much for your really useful practical tips in this respect, it's giving me ideas too which is excellent. ravenkaldera wrote: This is where transparency comes in. Start training her to A) be completely honest and transparent with you, and B) be introspective so that she can better offer you her insides. Start asking questions like, "What have you been thinking about that you don't want to tell me?" Start conditioning her to be unable to be anything but honest when she answers. This will head off those "What do you mean you've been thinking X for two weeks and not telling me?" moments. -Raven Kaldera Yes I agree this also needs to be done, I think we had some work in this direction but it's clear it needs to be pushed far further now. Hopefully it can also assist in bringing some things out from her subsconscious as well, as I think part of the problem has also been the girl has not even wanted to admit to herself what's been going on. Thanks so much for your brilliant thoughts and useful suggestions, and for taking the time to share them. De Edited 18 Feb 09, 11:45 AM by Degenerate Next page