The Ownership Flag and Icons    [other banners]

	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Submissive versus Slave" Submissive versus Slave (8) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Sun 25 Jan 09, 6:37 AM OliveCS20 5 yrs Looking at the site, and memos recieved I was wondering how does a submissive find a Dominate that wants a submissive and not a slave? Are they really that interchangable or is that most people want a slave and not a submissive? 25 Jan 09, 7:38 AM little_linnet US, 6 yrs Because this site is primarily aimed at discussions about slavery, there are probably going to be more people here looking for slaves than submissives. Sometimes, it's just that people conflate the two terms and say they want a "slave" when what they want is a non-enslaved submissive. I think your best bet, in any case, is to be crystal clear and assertive about the kind of relationship you're looking for and the type of limits you wish to place on your submission. You're still going to get contacted by numpties who haven't paid any attention at all to what you say, but, you'll stand a higher chance of being found by the people with complementary wants. Krista ... the ability to extend opportunity to every willing heart, not out of charity, but because it is the surest route to our common good. 25 Jan 09, 7:58 PM 772-285-657 US(PA), 3 yrs In my case, my Master found me. Even though when we met I was very agressive and controlling (I was His boss!) he saw something in me and pusued me and then slowly started drawing out my submissive side which eventually lead to marriage and slavery. I have never been happier but I can honestly tell you that if someone would have told me when we met that 3 years down the road I would be slave, I would have told them they were crazy. You see, I knew I wanted to be "submissive" to the right man but I also held negative connotations about slavery. It took time to build the trust that was necessary in order to open the door to slavery and thus my ultimate happiness. It is important to know what you want in a Dom but it is also important to keep an open mind. ~m/e 772 285 657 And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. Anais Nin Edited 25 Jan 09, 8:06 PM by 772-285-657 25 Jan 09, 8:50 PM crystalredroze US(OH), 4 yrs Y! To me a submissive and a slave are completely different. However if your looking for a clearer idea of this look both of them up in the dictionary. i dont mean to sound silly here but Master had me do this in the beginning just so that i wouldnt get the two confused and so that we both clearly knew what our goal together was without a misunderstanding on it. You may find it a bit harder on here to find a Dom but they do exist here but all in all this place is aimed at slaves and Masters. A good place to find what your looking for may be local groups in your area. Usually they have groups on yahoo and are fairly easy to find. i hope this helps. 26 Jan 09, 1:35 AM MasterMezs_Rosie UK, 3 yrs From the get go me and my Master knew that I wanted, and felt that I was, to be a collared slave, not just a submissive. You need to make it clear to everyone what it is that you want to be and/or what you feel you are. ChibiDilandau With enough lube and physical effort- anything is possible ^_~ 26 Jan 09, 2:56 AM Domone65 UK, 3 yrs Y! jjsslave wrote: To me a submissive and a slave are completely different. However if your looking for a clearer idea of this look both of them up in the dictionary. i dont mean to sound silly here but Master had me do this in the beginning just so that i wouldnt get the two confused and so that we both clearly knew what our goal together was without a misunderstanding on it. You may find it a bit harder on here to find a Dom but they do exist here but all in all this place is aimed at slaves and Masters. A good place to find what your looking for may be local groups in your area. Usually they have groups on yahoo and are fairly easy to find. i hope this helps. I did a very similar thing with my /s ... i gave her all the information and she realised although she thought of herself as a submissive, she is more suited to being a slave and needs everything M/s holds to be happy. To save confusion, although i progressed from Dominant to Master, I have had my screen name for many years on a number of sites , so to change it I would probably lose contact with many old friends. Rick 26 Jan 09, 3:06 PM 276-730-264 US, 3 yrs Keyboard tapping Doms and subbies are confusing these terms all the time! And don't forget the kinky people who don't fit in any of the above categories! I think most of the confusion comes from online. That does not take into consideration the genuine people, or those who are just learning..I mean no disrespect. My point is the online players probably tend to confuse the real people that are trying to discover their identity within the lifestyle. The two terms "sub and slave" are used interchangeably all the time it seems. When I played online bdsm I saw it. I see it here!! Heck, I suppose I even use the term interchangeably at times. I remember a question on a standardized test from college that was something like this, "If woozles are whatsits and some whatsits are wingdings, are woozles wingdings?" LOL The concept of the question applies here. Slaves are submissives too. But not all submissives are slaves. IMHO 276-730-264 Edited 26 Jan 09, 3:09 PM by 276-730-264 26 Jan 09, 3:56 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I think it's time for one of us to point out the SD! wiki and mention that, yes, the terms are often seen as interchangeable, but not here. We have an agreed set of definitions which are used on the boards so that each and every thread doesn't descend into definitional hell. Here are the most relevant entries... Slave: A person who is owned: that is, someone in a relationship with an owner who has ultimate authority over them, and from which the slave cannot remove themselves. One of the key differences between the usage of the word "slave" in the Ownership Subculture and the BDSM Play Scene is the concept of slaves being literal slaves: this is just the everyday definition of "slave" and it doesn't include the roleplay slaves you sometimes meet elsewhere in BDSM. For example, the second edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives: "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights." Contrast this definition with ongoing voluntary submission. Submissive: A person who prefers to be subordinate in a D/s relationship, obeying, serving, and pleasing their Dominant partner. Submissive is the broadest term in the submissive/slave/property panoply. All slaves are submissives and all who describe themselves as property are submissives but not all submissives are slaves or property of an owner. Self-describing as a submissive does not necessarily mean that the person already has a dominant. Instead, submissive describes a preference for taking the submissive role in a relationship or in a bdsm scene and operates as a type of self-description or self-advertisement. The term bottom is in turn a more general than "submissive", and also includes people who take a passive role in BDSM activities that don't include obedience or service. The everyday definition of the word "submissive" is: "characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others" (Merriam-Webster). The bdsm and M/s definition of submissive differs from the everyday definition of submissive in the following ways: Submissive in BDSM and the Ownership Subculture is commonly used as a noun and this is a correct usage within this subculture. The word submissive in the BDSM world is considerably more protean than the ordinary use of the word. Submissive in the everyday sense is an adjective describing a fixed personality feature exhibited in all interactions with others. In the vanilla world "submissive" commonly refers to a set of traits that is manifested whenever the person interacts with anyone. Within BDSM or the Ownership Subculture the word "submissive" refers only to that person's relationship to their own dominant or potential dominants they wish to form a relationship with. In other words, some very non-submissive people in the vanilla world commonly describe themselves as submissive when referring to their relationship with a dominant or when describing themselves in the BDMS or Ownership Subculture. Differences between submissives and slaves: Within much of the Ownership Subculture, submissive is used as a counter-example to the term "slave". Submissives are described as people who have rights within their D/s relationship, including the right and ability to leave if the relationship becomes difficult or unpleasant. Within a D/s relationship submissives may have the ability to negotiate the terms of their submission on a moment to moment basis and have expectations of their owner on how they should be treated. These expectations are taken very seriously by both the dominant and the submissive. They may be described in a written document which both parties are expected to adhere to or they may be verbal agreements that are subject to frequent re-negotiations. and just for good measure as it's referenced in the slave definition above... Ongoing Voluntary Submission: A relationship in which a submissive continually consents to obey and serve a dominant, and their continued presence in the relationship is voluntary. This is in contrast with relationships of Consensual Nonconsent, which are entered with the consent of the submissive, but may subsequently involve the submissive being subject to acts which they do not want (eg punishments, or restraint.) Internal Enslavement, where the slave's ability to remove themself from the relationship has been lost, is one important type of Consensual Nonconsent relationship. This is one of the fundamentals of the SD! forum... a common language that accepts individual differences but applies an agreed lexicon that facilitates discussion of substantive issues so that we don't get drawn back to the basics all the time. But it's good to revisit it now and then for the new members. Can I also make a final comment and a plea? The main boards, IE theory and practice, the submission and dominance boards and those relating to household, service, ritual and so on are specifically for discussion of 24/7 D/s or M/s. Online relationships are off topic for these boards and when too many threads end up discussing online matters it dilutes the purpose of the boards. (I'm not relating this to THIS thread particularly but a lot of discussions on the submission board lately are ending up with this problem and I don't want to harp on on each and every one! ) So please try to use the Online Board for those threads and be a little careful about taking 24/7 discussions into that area as there is a world of difference. You'll earn the gratitude of many of the members here if you can help us keep clarity and provide good discussions and advice and support for both areas but not muddle them and so confuse people too much. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** Edited 26 Jan 09, 4:02 PM by anjuli 26 Jan 09, 4:34 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs OliveCS20 wrote: Submissive versus Slave Looking at the site, and memos recieved I was wondering how does a submissive find a Dominate that wants a submissive and not a slave? Are they really that interchangable or is that most people want a slave and not a submissive? I don't think the roles are interchangeable but generally speaking the terms are. That makes it hard to tell who wants what simply from face value. Here on SD we have the benefit of consensus as to the definition of each word but the same cannot be said of all other situations. I think the best way is to clarify to prospective d-types what *you* mean by each term and you might want to consider adopting those we use here. Personally, I did not consider myself a slave before coming to SD but I've found the clarity of the SD! Wiki definitions handy and have come to use them for everyday conversations. I do sometimes have to tell the definitions to start off, but I've never met with anyone unwilling to use them. Camille