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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "I don't understand IE" 1 2 3 I don't understand IE (29) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. 23 Jan 09, 12:05 PM property_of_MacCain 3 yrs MG's, You know i like you, and i hate to disagree... but i have to. In order for I.E. to work the M-type has to be actively involved in putting it in place. Otherwise it is just love and admiration driving the s-type to want to please. That can be found in even the most vanilla relationships. I.E. is a different animal. It is not having will of your own because it was scrubbed out. It is being rewritten as your M-type wants you to be. Will, in this case, likes Claire as she is and is doing nothing to scrub her clean. Claire wants to be with him, and wants to please him... which is awesome and wonderful... and is how I.E. can start from the s end... but... If Claire got angry at Will she she can walk out. In I.E. there is no getting angry and walking out. You can be completely pissed off and want more than anything to go... but you physically can not leave. Now... Claire might be in the right mindset to start the process, if she wanted, but Will is not. As he is not actively trying to enslave her mentally. See I.E. FACTS "the process of enslavement involves a huge amount of work by the master and an ongoing effort to hold her in slavery. To do this, he needs to achieve a deep understanding of her emotions (including her emotional history) and her view of what is happening in the relationship. Armed with this information, he is able to maintain an environment she cannot get herself out of (partly because he continually adjusts it so that he remains in control.) This is sometimes called Psychological or Emotional Bondage. " It is just not possible without the M-type actively trying to do it. So, no... Claire has something wonderful, but is not Internally Enslaved. p i breathe because He allows me, indulging Him indulges me. 23 Jan 09, 1:49 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs PuppyClaire wrote: edited to add this: <snip> I don't know how I can allow Will to feel free to be himself if I''m still telling him that I can't cope if he goes away. I think the best thing I can do for Will is to be ok. To take away that condition. If he knows that I'll be alright whatever he does then he'll be able to make his choices without worrying about me. I'd like to be able to do that for him. I'm trying to understand IE to answer questions 1 and 2. I'm thinking about it because I want to avoid my worst case situation of losing myself to IE and then Will choosing to go on another tour before I can handle it, so I need to sort my issue out now, while I've got Will with me, while it's "safe". That leads to question 4 which is "How do i do that?" Thank you for reading all this rambling. It helps me to think about it while I type it. Hi Claire and sorry for missing your added points - sneaky of you editing them in back there! <grins> Firstly I think you are in danger of overthinking it. You can't just fall into IE by accident - as p has most ably pointed out, it takes lots of work and committment on Will's part and an active decision. So put that fear aside. What you're afraid of is the dependency that comes with the vulnerability and exposure in an M/s or D/s type relationship maybe? I have one thing on this that I know you both have already realised. One of the reasons this life is not for everyone is the huge responsibility that comes with owning or taking control of another's life. But does this stop people who do it and do it to the utmost extent from working, travelling away, leaving the s-type alone for periods? Well the answer is no. You might find this interesting reading... http://www.enslavement.org.uk/cv-maslow It's a favourite bit of writing of mine and I think goes some way to balance out the argument that dependency is always unhealthy. It doesn't have to be. You can go as far as IE and still function as a full and fulfilled human being. Of course, it is conceiveable that someone could use psychological techniques to deprive someone else of the ability to operate and function normally in the world without them. Abuse victims often find it difficult to leave their abusers - they're not internally enslaved! Some abusers are very very clever at isolating and manipulating their victims, developing unhealthy aspects of their personalities or weaknesses or mental instabilities to suit their own purposes. But that's not what we're talking about. I have an unshakeable belief that in the hands of a good person, IE and other M/s techniques can be a tool for development of healthy and strong submissives in all sorts of ways. Your fear about Will being in an active service zone was, as you said, already a problem for you. It's entirely unconnected to your fears and ponderings about M/s and IE. So, if he accepts a role as your D/O/M then ask yourself what he's likely to do about that? It's part of your emotional and psychological background and history. He's not going to allow it to sit there unaddressed is he? He cannot just work around it and expect to be fully successful. And he's not about to allow it to build into some major breakdown if he ever had to go away where you'd be afraid he was in danger, is he? Not if he accepts responsiblity for you and wants you to be whole and capable to serve him well. So imagine a way in which you let this go. Accept it as a problem you need to address and then let him help you either himself, or with outside help and counselling, or both, to deal with this? It's entirely possible and then what you are left with is a clear mind to develop a fully healthy dependence on him rather than a paranoid fear of something that may never happen, yes? This is one major roadblock for you. IE isn't going to happen with it in place because you'd never feel truly safe. You could go on worrying about it or you could stop getting the guilts about it and get help - his or outside or both. It could be a way of working on yourself for him whilst he has the time to learn and think about what he truly wants and how far he can go. And you can benefit either way by using it as a way of making yourself a better, stronger human being and a better future slave or property of his? You won't have far to go. You're strong and capable anyhow, we already know. The fear is real but also an unreasonable one to allow to govern your life. I'm convinced you know this. You're probably surrounded by women whose men head off to tours of duty in all sorts of places and they cope - and I speak as one who knows all too well. You two have a huge advantage in that you're going to be closer and more in tune than the vast majority and able to offer each other the support and strength you need when it's needed. Trust yourself. One step at a time. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 23 Jan 09, 3:55 PM humananimaltrainer 3 yrs 373-468-022 wrote: This is not as thoughtful and profound as others. Nevertheless at times simplicity works. Clare, when you feel Will in your mind, body, and soul, and his wishes become your goals without thoughts of your own, you will understand. From what you have aaid you have this. Letting go, letting Will become your entire purpose is IE, from how i understand it. MGs slave Perfect. To act instinctively without personal thought. Simple as it gets. The whole purpose of the master/pet dynamic. Edited 23 Jan 09, 4:06 PM by humananimaltrainer 23 Jan 09, 4:47 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Just thought I'd add another quote from Tanos's IE site that p gave the link for above that I think is helpful to understanding the difference between IE and service no matter how dedicated... Why is it called Internal Enslavement? When a submissive is internally enslaved, she has internalised her slavery. Furthermore, the process of enslavement takes place within, even if her external, physical environment contributes to it. For this reason we make a distinction between Internal Enslavement and the External "Slave Training" schemes you often read about - approaches which concentrate on the form of slavery (speaking respectfully, assumming numbered "slave positions", acting in a "slavelike" manner) rather than on ownership which is the substance of slavery. I feel that it's unhelpful to confuse the desire or deep-seated need with actual enslavement as if it were something which can just happen if the s-type wants it enough, somehow without her noticing... or by stopping thinking for that matter. It takes a proactive decision and action by the D/O/M, time and effort to build and then continual work and maintenance to hold it in being. The right material and her readiness is needed assuredly (and it's nice to see) but it's not something that you can accidentally fall into or wish into being. But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible? The Enslavement Hypothesis is that there are submissives who have an overwhelming need to be possessed by a dominant. Given the right environment, the submissive can be coaxed out from behind the protective walls she has built during her life and made to expose all of her Self to her master. Among other things this requires that he creates an environment which is emotionally safe and in which her underlying character will be accepted, probably for the first time in her life. During this process, the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved. Hope that helps clarify and focus back on Claire's actual worries and questions. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 23 Jan 09, 4:49 PM property_of_MacCain 3 yrs Anyone can train themselves to act slavely... but to be I.E. you NEED the M to be psychologically changing the s. Not just some random person trying to please some other random person. Claire has been quite clear she wants to please Will. i will reiterate that is great, i'm not bashing it. But wanting to please is not the same thing. If you leave out the M's involvement it is not I.E. For that reason, I.E. doesn't apply to her relationship at this time. p ~~edited to say : bah! anjuli beat me to it! Good show anjuli!~~ edited further to make the note that I.E. is not the end all be all of M/s or Owner/pet dynamics.... plenty of folks enjoy this lifestyle without that element. Remember, only you know what is right for you. i breathe because He allows me, indulging Him indulges me. Edited 23 Jan 09, 5:21 PM by property_of_MacCain 23 Jan 09, 8:59 PM 373-468-022 US(WA), 3 yrs Y! i agree, i shouldn't attempt to type after a day of school. p, you are better with words than i by far, or wording IE. MGs "It's the submissives that show to others what type of Dom owns them." - Anonymous "If you want to kiss the sky, better learn how to kneel." Mysterious Ways- U2 23 Jan 09, 9:50 PM 688-764-833 US, 5 yrs Hi, Claire. I'd just like to give you my take on your feeling like, "I *already* know my world would shatter if anything happened to Will so why the hell would I want to make myself *more* dependent/vulnerable to him through IE?". In my opinion, it doesn't work like that (and you will be cheating both Will and yourself if you close yourself off out of fear). World-shattering devastation, the worst thing that could happen to you will always be the worst thing that can happen to you: it doesn't get "more worse", if you see what I mean. You may look back and think, "wow, I thought *that* was catastrophic (or amazing) but now I realize this is so much more intense", but while you're in it, the level of the most catastrophic/amazing thing is the the most intense thing you've experienced; life may "raise the bar" as to what earns a "most _____" title in one's world but the top level of intensity of the emotions one feels (joy, fear, whatever) doesn't change- what it takes to get one to those levels can (and usually does) but the actual *feelings* do not. Example: when I was eleven, a girl at camp was devastated that her parents were getting divorced- that news destroyed life as she knew it. By that time, I had been through enough crap that a divorce would have been a breeze for me to deal with but it flattened this girl; it was the worst thing that ever happened *to her* and the impact of it was the equivalent of whatever my "worst" would be. What would be "the worst" may change but something will always be the worst thing that could happen. Also, really let Will help you deal with this. And whether he decides to pursue IE or not is his decision. Your job is to not fight his decision Hope this made sense.... Cheers, Leesie 23 Jan 09, 9:50 PM SixThreeFive SE, 4 yrs Somehow, you're all putting the finger on why I (at least at the moment) doubt my enslavement: It doesn't feel like he's in charge, it doesn't feel like he's doing jack shit. We repedeately end up in situations where I realize IE (or whatever this is) is breaking, because I'm not communicating enough and because I'm not placing myself under his control. Sometimes, that means I need to put him in charge, instead of him taking charge. To me, that isn't enslavement. To me, enslavement is something the Owner creates, maintains, supports. I have very few expectations on what it is an Owner does to create, maintain and support enslavement - the literal acts of it - but I believe without doubt that the Owner takes charge and doesn't let it go. That the slave doesn't need to, in every action and every day, continually choose to obey. I fear we've got one of those discussions coming up. If I disappear from SD!, he's removed me. That happens sometimes. On the other hand, I suspect it'll be The Talk, possibly an Argument and I'll have my head screwed back on again. Most likely, I'm completely wrong in my thoughts and emotions. (See the "Process of Normalization"-thread.) Bah. I hate these emotions. Why do they show up at times? Smile, it confuses people. 23 Jan 09, 11:51 PM PuppyClaire UK, 3 yrs 688-764-833 wrote: I'd just like to give you my take on your feeling like, "I *already* know my world would shatter if anything happened to Will so why the hell would I want to make myself *more* dependent/vulnerable to him through IE?". Leesie I'm so glad that I did manage to actually put my fear into words well enough for it to be understood....although, as Anjuli picked up, it's more of a fear of me slipping into something that would be unhealthy for me than a reluctance. Leesie, I do want to clarify though that while you are right, if the worst happened to Will then nothing could make it worse, but I know I have a problem with anxiety and possibly even panics when Will is just away, even when he;s safe. My brain keeps saying "something could have happened overnight......something could have happened while you were out shopping....something could have happened while you were with your friends. It's such an unhealthy thing for me that it led to me dumping the man I love when he proposed to me instead of marrying him. I want to protect myself from slipping into IE while I deal with it, and I'm glad people have managed to explain to me that I couldn't. anjuli wrote: Accept it as a problem you need to address and then let him help you either himself, or with outside help and counselling, or both, to deal with this? anjuli Sorry for "sneaking" an edit into my post Anjuli, but when I did it it was still the last post on the thread and I didn't want to post twice. I don't know as many other military partners as you might think. Will and I have always lived off base and I don't have other military connections myself. I met him as he went to school with my best friend's brother. When we broke up I moved and I'm now about 2 hours from his base. While we were apart I had no connections at all. I'm going to ask Will to find out for me if the military offers counselling to partners. I'm sure they must have some to support families if they lose someone, and I can't be the first person to have this problem. I should have asked about this a long time ago instead of burying my head in the sand. Does anyone know how a counsellor would react to someone interested in D/s bringing it up in counselling?....I know counselling is meant to be confidential but I don't know if this might be different for any reason......or does anyone know how to go about finding a counsellor who is sympathetic to D/s? Thank you everyone, I've been here almost 3 months now and I'm still in awe of how helfpul everyone is. Claire 24 Jan 09, 1:32 AM 373-468-022 US(WA), 3 yrs Y! There is a list of kink friendly counselors in many areas. Good luck, i am happy to hear you learned what you wished. MGs "It's the submissives that show to others what type of Dom owns them." - Anonymous "If you want to kiss the sky, better learn how to kneel." Mysterious Ways- U2 Next page