This page sponsored by JT's Stockroom    [other banners]

	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "I don't understand IE" 1 2 3 I don't understand IE (29) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Mon 19 Jan 09, 11:48 PM PuppyClaire UK, 3 yrs I don't mean any disrespect with this thread, I'm curious about something i don't understand. I understand what IE means, but I'm trying to understand "why". Why do dominants seek to instill this in their relationships?....what does it add? I'll be the first to admit I have a wierd D/s relationship. I'm new to everything and my partner is both new and would argue that he isn't a dom, he's just the person I'm submissive to. We're doing many things that would fit in a D/s relationship but as there is no point system for qualifying or not I can only judge it by the fact that we're really happy. I have a partner who doesn't really want to change me and who I'd do anything for whether he ordered it, commanded it or just asked, I'd do it. I've been trying to figure out what would be different about our relationship if I had been IE'd (sorry, not sure of the right term here) and I can only think of one thing. I left Will early last year because I couldn't cope with the risks attached to his job and and him being away. If I'd been unable to leave him I don't think I would have been better able to cope with that, I'd just have been anxious about leaving and anxious about staying. That sounds a bit scary to me. Do I just have a relationship where IE really wouldn't apply?, or does IE have a function for the dominant that I just can't understand because I'm submissive? Do you have to be dominant to understand it? Does the fact that in 6 months I had virtually no interest in anyone else and got myself into a mess that only sorted itself out when he came back into my life mean I'm already a little IE'd?...or does the fact that right now I couldn't imagine being apart from him ever again mean that...or do they both just mean that I love him? I'd love to understand better what it adds to a relationship, and whether people feel it adds to every D/s relationship or just some. Claire 20 Jan 09, 1:21 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs It's certainly not for every power dynamic, or even most of them. That's like asking if the "best" way to be a Catholic is to be a monk or a nun. It's simply one path among many. As to your second question ... from the sound of it, I'd say that you are ... in love. And there's nothing wrong with that! Love is great. Love is wonderful. Love can build the devotional aspect of a relationship. As to your first question - why would anyone want that? - it's a good question, and I expect that it's one that every dominant who practices IE will have a different answer to. Joshua and I did not set out to have an IE dynamic. It began to happen, after a year or so, and we discussed whether we wanted to keep going in that direction, and both decided that yes, we did. I discovered that I really enjoyed it. I enjoy knowing that no matter what happens, Joshua will be here and stick out the process of working it out. His being unable to leave gives me the security to be able to do things that he won't like, but that I've decided are necessary. When he's struggling with something, instead of "He might safeword and leave! Quick, panic and back off!" my reaction is, "He is unhappy and completely vulnerable and I am in charge. It is my responsibility to help him through this." I enjoy the fact that he can't lie to me, and he can't hide any part of his thoughts and feelings from me. It makes relationship processing so much easier! He's also discovered that if he's unconsciously lying to himself, and he looks me in the eye and tries to say it, he won't be able to. This has become a useful tool of introspection for him. While he is a good boy and wants to do things correctly, some things I ask of him are hard. Not abusive, not damaging, just difficult and annoying. If I can use IE techniques to get him to like doing something, or to do it automatically without thinking or having any negative feelings about it, it's easier for him. He likes that, because by definition he doesn't like doing things he doesn't like doing. By simply changing his attitude about it, we bypass the struggle. He finds it very secure. He is made obscurely happy by the feeling of control I have over him. (Why? You'd have to ask him.) I find it easier to be intimate with him, now that I have made him entirely vulnerable to me. I like being able to force him to improve himself, in ways I couldn't if he was mentally opaque to me in any way, or could resist. Self-improvement is never comfortable, and there's a great tendency to resist. And, yes, I like the power of it. Why would anyone want to be with someone who had to do anything they wanted, and whom they would change at will, at least to some extent? Sheesh, I can't imagine. (grin) Maybe someone who liked power, liked getting their way, and liked being able to craft and perfect the things around them, including people? I know that in the rest of the world, people aren't supposed to want that sort of thing. It's supposed to be a sign of bad character or something - a control freak, a narcissist, perhaps a sociopath. Power corrupts, and total power corrupts totally, right? Bullshit, I say. If that were true only the utterly powerless would be good people. Like all such ambivalent acts, it's not wrong if the person you're doing it with is into it, and if you are being honorable about it. Do all dominants want that? I doubt there's much of anything that *all* dominants want, besides wanting to be dominant in some way. We aren't a homogenous class of people by any means. I wanted it. I didn't think I could have it, until I got it. I find it very fulfilling. There's probably more, I just can't think of it right now. Feel free to ask specific questions if you like. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 20 Jan 09, 2:53 AM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! Well I have to admit that I fully understand IE. However, that is not what I percieve to be your issue. I gather that you are not want to understand what IE is, but rather what are it's presumable benefits. In my thinking the benefits speak for themselves. I get an enslaved female who is bound not with chains, but with the invisible impervious bonds of internal enslavement. Why would I wish to keep my slave emonded in iron or steel when I need not, and still be fully assured of her total bondage to me? I think this probably won't satisfactorily answer your question, but it is all I can come up with right now. Call me LL 20 Jan 09, 4:14 AM little_linnet US, 6 yrs The benefit to IE for me is that being owned means I'm in my element. I get to be a fish in water. Being bound the way IE binds me, with the last vestiges of meaningful choice removed, means I get to be fully myself in a way which I can't be if I have choices and power remaining to me. Krista The next time some man accuses you of hating men, explain that it isn't true or those brownies he's eating would be full of horse laxatives. 20 Jan 09, 11:54 AM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! little_linnet wrote: The benefit to IE for me is that being owned means I'm in my element. I get to be a fish in water. Being bound the way IE binds me, with the last vestiges of meaningful choice removed, means I get to be fully myself in a way which I can't be if I have choices and power remaining to me. Krista Hi, Krista I like that way of describing it. Call me LL Edited 23 Jan 09, 5:05 PM by Lord_Laraby 20 Jan 09, 1:37 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I'm going to have a go at explaining it on a personal level, Claire. So what does IE add to a relationship? Well, J likes the control as Raven does, and he sees huge benefits for me. You see I'm happier without the control. And that neatly benefits him, of course. Not incapable of self-control, not frightened of control, not unable to organise myself or my life, or unwilling to be adult or take responsibility. Just the counterpart of a dominant who needs a submissive, who is fulfilled by control just as I am fulfilled by freedom from that control. Put me in the wrong environment and the wrong relationship and I become very controlling at all sorts of levels, and stress and fear bring me out fighting. I can get swallowed up in that. A vicious circle that goes round and round, with me taking more and more control in an attempt to banish the fear of the lack of it! And I had no idea, but boy was I unhappy, and eventually I made others unhappy too. I'm not too guilty about that - the one I'm referring to made his own damn bed on that one in dropping responsibility for everything and leaving me to pick up the pieces without regard for what effect that was having on me - and that's the real definition of unhealthy avoidance of control and responsibility that the shrinks are after! But little did I know how damaging it could be to my inner peace and my inner self. Of course I'm capable. I've proved it on every level. I did it for 15 years and held our world together in some very difficult circumstances but the whole time it ate away at me and at our relationship. And I chose when to blow away the house of cards and start again. Once I understood me and found a man who understood it all, the concept of IE when laid on top of a stable and loving M/s dynamic made total sense to me. I've never felt so safe and peaceful and free to just BE as I do now. We started out with an agreement that this would not end at my behest. I think I needed that in place and held there with words and a sense of honour and duty before I could let it seep into mind and soul. At that final stage of agreeing and saying 'yes I will agree to this and stand by it come hell or high water - you're in charge entirely' it was scary but you don't do that with someone you don't trust and know, and it's been brought home to me over and over in so many ways, small and large, just how much I need this, that to fight it is daft. Oddly we still do at times, fight what's best for us - that's reactance for you - but that's why we have Masters who can push, pull, cajole and just plain command us thro it into a happier place of acceptance where we can flourish. Hope something somewhere in there makes sense for you. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 20 Jan 09, 9:12 PM PuppyClaire UK, 3 yrs Thanks everyone for answering, I'm still not sure how to seperate the bits of the answers that are about being submissive and which are about IE. I understand that my situation is different. I'm not leaving Will, ever. I'm going to work through whatever it takes to stay with him as often as i have to. In my eyes this is a relationship I'll never leave, but I know that if I told Will tomorrow I wanted to leave him then I'd have a choice that many on the boards don't have. I can feel many of the things people have said despite knowing that IE isn't a part of my relationship. I feel safe with him. I trust him completely. I'd give anything of myself to him if he wanted it. I feel safer and just happier as he takes more control. I'd happily give him all of it, I've given him whatever he wants to take, what's left is the fact that he'll look after the control for me but he'd give it back if I wanted it. This really isn't a criticism of Will, just my observation of our relationship. This may change.....we've still only been doing this for six weeks and we still live apart (for the moment). I'm starting to think that IE might be something that you can only understand when you're there, and it's mostly a difference in "certainty" and not necessarily a difference in "intent". Claire 21 Jan 09, 10:48 AM anjuli UK, 4 yrs PuppyClaire wrote: Thanks everyone for answering, I'm still not sure how to seperate the bits of the answers that are about being submissive and which are about IE. <snip> I'm starting to think that IE might be something that you can only understand when you're there, and it's mostly a difference in "certainty" and not necessarily a difference in "intent". Hmmm... you may be right on that last if I'm following how you are thinking. But it's also something that's taken - not exchanged. You cannot internally enslave yourself no matter how much you'd like to. And there's no judgement of either of you in any of this discussion, all our relationships are different, and he has to have time to learn and feel his way towards what he wants too. I've a not-so-sneaking regard for how he's stepped up to your revelations, and frankly I think he's got the makings (and you certainly have the desire and the strength) ... it's really a case of how far he WANTS to go and how far he judges you truly want him to. And no-one knows the answer to that yet. It's about when you switch your mind from power 'exchange' (the reason some of us feel that the whole concept is self-limiting) to a true power imbalance. I'm hoping that expression, my attempt to explain, does ring bells with others - and that, if not, they will pile in here with further attempts or alternatives of their own. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 21 Jan 09, 10:10 PM PuppyClaire UK, 3 yrs anjuli wrote: It's about when you switch your mind from power 'exchange' (the reason some of us feel that the whole concept is self-limiting) to a true power imbalance. Thanks Anjuli, the bit I've quoted from your answer was what I was thinking. I'm still anxious about being clear for Will's sake. I'm really not asking anything of him, just thinking out loud, but i don't want anyone to read this as me wanting more. I've got the most important thing in the world to me just by having Will back. There is one thought nagging away at the back of my head, so I think I should just pose it as a question and see if anyone can answer it for me. I left Will because the idea that he'd get killed in action was too powerful for me to deal with. I know now that leaving him was the single most stupid thing I've ever done, but I really can't find words to describe that feeling. Terror comes closest. Shaking, cold sweats. I was unable to function in the morning while he was away until I'd checked and double checked that there were no overnight casualties. I'd freeze whenever troops were mentioned on the news. I'm even having a shakey day today as someone of his rank was killed this week in the same part of the world he was in, even though I know where he is and that he's safe. I really don't know how I'd have coped if I wasn't able to leave the relationship. People describe the feeling of someone who is IE and thinking of leaving as "anxious". This just makes me think of myself in a situation where I'd be damned if I did try to leave and damned if i didn't.....if that makes sense. Will has now left the front lines, and I'm ecstatic and guilty at the same time. I want him to have the option to go back if he wants to, I really do.....but I think I might hold him back. I worry that the more we develop our relationship as D/s the less I'll be able to cope if he does. I think I'm the sort of person who might be "vulnerable" to IE. I think in the right circumstances I could easily end up there. I need to work through this issue in case I do and then Will goes back to the front, and I don't know how. I have spoken to Will about it and been very honest. I think that trying to understand IE is my first step in trying to work this out. If anyone can answer, if you were in a situation where your slave really couldn't cope with something you definately were going to do, but also couldn't leave you, and it was an all of nothing situation like mine (if Will is in a combat position he has no option to request a "safe" place to be assigned), how would you help them prepare? Claire edited to add this: Sometimes, by posting and then thinking about what I said I find a way to explain myself more clearly, I think I can now explain this better. I'm trying to figure out three things, but I'm putting them all together in my posts and so they're coming across wrong. If I seperate them it might be easier. 1. Would I want IE? I think the answer is that I would like the "certainty" part of it. 2. Am I the sort of person who might be predisposed / vulnerable to it? I think the answer is "yes". I don't know if that's a truely considered yes or an impulsive, overcompensating yes, but it feels like a yes. I think I have a type of personality that makes me lose myself in things and I think that might mean I could lose myself in IE. 3.Would it work for me, and more importantly for Will? I think the answer is no. I hope the answer is "not yet" and not "never". It's a no because I have at least one big issue to work through (that I recognise so far.). I don't know how I can allow Will to feel free to be himself if I''m still telling him that I can't cope if he goes away. I think the best thing I can do for Will is to be ok. To take away that condition. If he knows that I'll be alright whatever he does then he'll be able to make his choices without worrying about me. I'd like to be able to do that for him. I'm trying to understand IE to answer questions 1 and 2. I'm thinking about it because I want to avoid my worst case situation of losing myself to IE and then Will choosing to go on another tour before I can handle it, so I need to sort my issue out now, while I've got Will with me, while it's "safe". That leads to question 4 which is "How do i do that?" Thank you for reading all this rambling. It helps me to think about it while I type it. Claire Edited 22 Jan 09, 12:20 AM by PuppyClaire 23 Jan 09, 1:35 AM humananimaltrainer 3 yrs Internal Enslavement from my point of view as a human animal trainer is the perfect vehicle or method for training puppygirls. Obviously I.E. is the outcome, but the process of attaining that is relative to varying degrees of "seperate" activities being combined to achieve a type of fluency in actions and behavioral characteristics. Creating subtle scenarios of "dependancy" by removing the ability of the puppygirl to perform human tasks opens up the opportunity to develop various fetishistic activities which when combined begin to expand toward the character development. I guess an example would help. Watersports for instance has become quite popular as an individual "fetish". So if a puppygirl enjoys this as an activity, then it can be utilised as part of her "dehumanisation". Combined with wrapping her paws so her hands become useless, she becomes dependant on how she is to do her toilet, where and in which manner she will be cleaned afterward to avoid any form of infection. Conversely, the assimilation of ownership is paramount, so she should be fed her owners pee, used as a urinal and pissed on so she learns the taste and scent of her owner. In effect, using the puppygirl as a urinal also lends itself to the ideal that she is owned inside her body as well as outside when she is "marked as property" by her owners urine. Recycling becomes important aswell. Once she has drunk her owners pee as his urinal then she will inadvertantly need to recycle it as it is a waste product. Once her owners pee has been recycled through her then she again remains dependant on her owner to ensure she is cleaned appropriately. Obviously there are countless other ways to instill forms of I.E. but this is just an example of how one simple fetish can play a significant contribution to the totality of the role. Ahh, but what about the O-Ring gag you ask? Yet another simple item with so much impact. 23 Jan 09, 8:20 AM 373-468-022 US(WA), 3 yrs Y! This is not as thoughtful and profound as others. Nevertheless at times simplicity works. Clare, when you feel Will in your mind, body, and soul, and his wishes become your goals without thoughts of your own, you will understand. From what you have aaid you have this. Letting go, letting Will become your entire purpose is IE, from how i understand it. MGs slave "It's the submissives that show to others what type of Dom owns them." - Anonymous "If you want to kiss the sky, better learn how to kneel." Mysterious Ways- U2 Next page