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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Holistic Effects In Training." 1 2 3 Holistic Effects In Training. (25) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. 20 Jan 09, 8:10 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs I mean, ultimately that's why I love (in general) things like having to ask permission, being made to kneel, being called by disrespectful nicknames, being made to strip. All these things give me a delicious little thrill of humiliation. That's why they're sexy. I associate these humiliations with being safe and happy because in my life, that's what they mean. If I were living with a random controlling asshat who honestly felt contempt for me and who I could not feel safe with, then the same humiliations would definitely make me feel different, angry and frightened instead of turned on and content. Krista ... the ability to extend opportunity to every willing heart, not out of charity, but because it is the surest route to our common good. 20 Jan 09, 8:18 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Hi LL, Thanks for your comments. In response; Lord_Laraby wrote: Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? Yep, there's humiliation as an element in training in my house, and it works very well. As for how it benefits my slave I would first add as a clarification that I do not believe that all actions in M/s must necessarily benefit the slave, as I am not a service top. However in this instance it does happen to have benficial effects for both my boy's training to make him the slave I want, and for his own personal development. As he is property, humiliations (mild right through to strong) reinforces this state for him; as he belongs to me he is mine to control and do with as I please and humiliating activities can demonstrate this. Humiliation forces awareness of the fact that he is controlled and that his actions are not his to decide. Similarly, it has been a very valuable tool in teaching him humility, which is an extremely valuable trait within a slave. Lord_Laraby wrote: Perhaps it's because I don't subscribe to the school of thought related to breaking the slave (her ego and identity?) before building it over again. I don't see that 'breaking' a slave is any way an automatic by product of humiliation. Lord_Laraby wrote: Personally my feeling is that humiliation is about play and then is always clearly separated from the truth of the slaves characteristics. e.g. I may call her a nasty worthless cum soaking slut while playing with her. However, it is plain to her that none of that is the truth of how I see her. The example you give here, does indeed sound like 'play'. However, if within an M/s relationship an act works toward creating or maintaining enslavement, I would argue that it is part of the process of M/s, and not simply play. So physical use or BDSM is not necessarily only 'play' when occurs within M/s. 'If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again'. Sojourner Truth. 21 Jan 09, 11:08 AM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I wanted to just second that last comment of MT's. I'm glad she was able to answer LL so fully as I wasn't but wanted to! <grins> One of those, I know that's missing so much, but I'm not sure where to start in explaining. And one comment makes me wonder whether another topic is in order altho I'm struggling to think whether we've covered it recently... 'everything that's done in the relationship does not have to 'benefit' the slave' Be interesting but something of a detour to discuss this so I shall have a think about making a new topic if that's okay. Back to Krista's post which was also interesting but again raised some questions for me. I'm not sure I have this 'humiliation' gene! If you use the word to me I curl up and want to hide. And yet a lot of what you say rings true for me and as I've explored in my earlier post perhaps I'm interpreting humiliation differently or seeing it differently because J is not the random asshat who's making me feel awful? anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 21 Jan 09, 4:35 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Hi Anjuli, There could be a case made for slaves who do not enjoy or feel drawn to humiliation being the ones who would benefit from it the most. When you say you want to curl up in a ball and hide at the mention of it, one could - were one feeling controversial - suggest that this may be a sign of wanting to hold onto a degree of autonomous control and personal boundary precluding an Owner's authority or rights over their s-type. Similarly if an s-type enjoys humiliation then it may be a less effective tool, and render it's supply more of a fantasy/ kink fulfilment. Re the 'everything done in M/s does not need to 'benefit' the slave' idea, this is something I tried to discuss in the thread on 'Methodology and aims in M/s' thread recently http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/178242/0/#17... although I'm not sure I managed to express my thoughts as well or fully as I'd have liked. A new topic having another crack at discussing ideas surrounding this sounds really good to me 'If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again'. Sojourner Truth. 21 Jan 09, 6:36 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Mistress_Tiara wrote: There could be a case made for slaves who do not enjoy or feel drawn to humiliation being the ones who would benefit from it the most. When you say you want to curl up in a ball and hide at the mention of it, one could - were one feeling controversial - suggest that this may be a sign of wanting to hold onto a degree of autonomous control and personal boundary precluding an Owner's authority or rights over their s-type. Similarly if an s-type enjoys humiliation then it may be a less effective tool, and render it's supply more of a fantasy/ kink fulfilment. To use a rather crude and childish response, 'Oh crap!' <laughs> You could be right. Now how do I hide this thread? Seriously, I don't know that you are right that I'm hanging on to something but it's possible. And I can understand entirely that it loses its power if it's a real turn on for someone. Should make an interesting discussion when I feel brave enough to raise it. Mistress_Tiara wrote: Re the 'everything done in M/s does not need to 'benefit' the slave' idea, this is something I tried to discuss in the thread on 'Methodology and aims in M/s' thread recently http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/178242/0/#17... although I'm not sure I managed to express my thoughts as well or fully as I'd have liked. A new topic having another crack at discussing ideas surrounding this sounds really good to me I think this might be worth a shot so I will give it a go and see if I can frame it in a way that will draw something different out from contributors. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 21 Jan 09, 9:42 PM Sklavos_mou_Kyriah 3 yrs 276-730-264 wrote: little_linnet wrote: Lord_Laraby wrote: Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? OK, how about the humiliation of being required to ask permission to spend money, which is a small and pretty much daily humiliation for me? The humiliation of sitting on the floor while an owner sits in a chair? The humiliation of being expected to be bored out of my mind, sitting quietly, while he does whatever he does on the computer? The humiliation of knowing my nudity or clothedness is in his hands and has nothing to do with my comfort? The humiliation of never having privacy? All these things are humiliations. They aren't stagy, elaborate fetishistic humiliations, no, but the root word of humiliation is "humility". All the little everyday things that establish and reinforce my status as a slave are humiliating, even though I experience most of them as positives. The feeling of humiliation is definitely there and I feel it as a happy little glow of being owned, being in a relationship with someone who can humiliate me in those small ways. It definitely strengthens my enslavement and affects my behavior. One of the times I remember most vividly was when I'd received my hardest beating ever (it still remains the hardest beating I've had) and I was *thisclose* to the brink of hysteria and freaking out. Mr L brought me back down by making me lie at his feet, suck on his fingers and drink from a glass he tipped for me, all of which both made me feel safe and grounded and also strengthened the message that I belonged to him, that I was subject to the things he did. It moved me from a frantic state of mind to a calm and submissive one. Krista It is so well worth it to quote the entire thing. Well put Krista. ..... Can a slave who does not consistently reflect or be made to acknowledge her humility really be connected to his/her slavery? I agree, Krista has put her case very well outlining the entire scenario. Now I can't pretend that my situation is as involved as that, (how can it in LDR?), but certain things do stand out that I can identify with, such as my wife controlling the housekeeping and by extention my own finances. But there is one thing that has struck me here, and that is when I feel I am being humiliated I have a choice. The main punishment/humiliation I receive is the "Chapter of Faults" where every step out of line , however small is highlighted to me. Now I can argue/debate the issue or I can quietly accept the criticism whether just or not, and that way learn a bit of humility. IMHO it is this humility that is the slave/submissive's key to true freedom. To be a true slave is to be truly free Slave/Sklavos 22 Jan 09, 1:33 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs 315-076-759 wrote: Now I can argue/debate the issue or I can quietly accept the criticism whether just or not, and that way learn a bit of humility. IMHO it is this humility that is the slave/submissive's key to true freedom. That's interesting, and I know my boy would agree. I think humility is often enhanced as a result of this acceptance you describe too. 'If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again'. Sojourner Truth. 22 Mar 09, 3:54 AM Malkinius US(IL), 5 yrs Greetings all.... I just found this thread and realized that throughout all of it, there was a problem. Some people were using humiliation when they should have been using humbling. There is a difference. When someone is being humiliated, they are usually being insulted and put down. When someone is being humbled, they are usually being put or kept in a lower place. Note the difference. Humbling someone, especially a slave, to teach them their place and to keep them there is, I have found, to be a very good and effective tool for training and ownership. Yes, some of what I call humbling other call humiliation, but there is a difference in intent. Humiliation tears down. Humbling lowers. As some said above, they don't agree with the tear down someone and rebuild them school of training. Reward and some punishment work a lot better. Is the action of a slave naked and kneeling at the feet of her Master humbling or humiliating or comforting? Or can it be all of them at various times? As long as we know and communicate why we are doing some of the things we do, they will go over much better and have a greater tendency to have the effect we are seeking. It might seem odd, but I have noted that the more I say why I am doing things in training, the better they work. My assumption is that because it is part of the nature of the slave to want to be pleasing, when they know the goal, they work harder at getting to the goal. Be well all.... Malkinius 22 Mar 09, 5:26 AM LS666propertyowner 3 yrs humilation and punishmeant is a ONE PACKAGE deal, hand in hand deal. it is natural for the servant/slave to suffer humilation while the servant/slave is being punished. a slave should never be punished out in public, and that's because the humilation factor sky rockets within the slave, thereby, the master is being a NASTY master! and if the happens, the slave has everyright to humailate the master/owner or just leave the master altogether. however, in a perfect M/S relationship, there is no humilation, and that's because the slave/servant is being totally FAITHFULL(trustworthy, fullfilling and obediant). Regards, LS666propertyowner If you don't mind, then it doesn't matter!!!... But, if you mind then it matters!!! Edited 22 Mar 09, 5:49 AM by LS666propertyowner 23 Mar 09, 10:27 AM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Malkinius wrote: Humiliation tears down. Humbling lowers. As some said above, they don't agree with the tear down someone and rebuild them school of training. Reward and some punishment work a lot better. The problem I have with this idea, which I see mentioned by numerous people on various threads, is that it makes a base assumption about the psychological traits, and strength of character of slaves. The idea that humiliation will 'tear down'/ 'break'/ 'damage' a slave inherently assumes a predicatbility of a slaves response, and assumes a slave to have a rather fragile personality. I accept that for many people humiliation may cause these outcomes, but I also think it is sensible to allow for the probability that the same stimuli may not produce the same outcome in all people. The human psyche is after all a diverse and complex thing. Next page