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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Holistic Effects In Training." 1 2 3 Holistic Effects In Training. (25) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Mon 19 Jan 09, 11:02 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs When reading these boards I am often reminded that many acts, methods, or protocols we may use regularly in M/s or D/s have applicatory results in many areas, which may be further reaching than one would instantly expect. The recent thread about humiliation was a good example so I will use that as a starting point to explore something of what I mean. Humiliation is variously considered a simple sexual kink, counter productive, enjoyable, ghastly, punishing etc. However, its application may have plenty of other effects too. It can be used as a tool to create or reinforce control, reinforce and lead to an increase in submission, reinforce or help create status as property, be used as discipline or punishment, be a tool to help train a slave's obedience, and is an excellent tool for assisting with humility training. This principle applies to many things; captivity reinforces status as property, submission, obedience, can humiliate, can be used as discipline etc. Service may reinforce obedience, increase in submission, reinforce status as property, be humiliating, and reinforce control……. you get the idea. Many behaviours or protocols bring about results in numerous areas. It is my experience that this is an almost constant reality of daily life in M/s (and probably D/s), and this is something I often factor in to training decisions. I wonder to what degree slave's are aware of this when it is happening though, and if they have any thoughts on this? Also if other Owner's see this in action as well, and if they have any thoughts on this? I look forward to your thoughts 'If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again'. Sojourner Truth. 19 Jan 09, 11:28 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs I think it's a true thing and particularly in the case of humiliation. It's a tool relied on in training for representatives of many religions. Whatever else may have been accomplished, the majority was in service to others. A focus on one's own importance would surely be in conflict with living that sort of life. From time to time I will consider our relationship and I can see where C's action caused my reaction and the end result was a stronger M/s bond between us. I rarely notice it at the time and I think it's 'cause C rarely does these things intentionally - they're natural occurrences in a man with C's desires. The things he does do intentionally are presented openly. If I didn't know him as well as I do he might be able to do them without my notice. But as it stands between us now, because I would be aware it wouldn't be effective. I would more than likely tell that I knew and ask why he'd done it that way. Camille 20 Jan 09, 2:30 AM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! Mistress_Tiara wrote: Holistic Effects In Training. When reading these boards I am often reminded that many acts, methods, or protocols we may use regularly in M/s or D/s have applicatory results in many areas, which may be further reaching than one would instantly expect. The recent thread about humiliation was a good example so I will use that as a starting point to explore something of what I mean. Humiliation is variously considered a simple sexual kink, counter productive, enjoyable, ghastly, punishing etc. However, its application may have plenty of other effects too. It can be used as a tool to create or reinforce control, reinforce and lead to an increase in submission, reinforce or help create status as property, be used as discipline or punishment, be a tool to help train a slave's obedience, and is an excellent tool for assisting with humility training. This principle applies to many things; captivity reinforces status as property, submission, obedience, can humiliate, can be used as discipline etc. Service may reinforce obedience, increase in submission, reinforce status as property, be humiliating, and reinforce control……. you get the idea. Many behaviours or protocols bring about results in numerous areas. It is my experience that this is an almost constant reality of daily life in M/s (and probably D/s), and this is something I often factor in to training decisions. I wonder to what degree slave's are aware of this when it is happening though, and if they have any thoughts on this? Also if other Owner's see this in action as well, and if they have any thoughts on this? I look forward to your thoughts Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? Perhaps it's because I don't subscribe to the school of thought related to breaking the slave (her ego and identity?) before building it over again. Personally my feeling is that humiliation is about play and then is always clearly separated from the truth of the slaves characteristics. e.g. I may call her a nasty worthless cum soaking slut while playing with her. However, it is plain to her that none of that is the truth of how I see her. To correct her behavior I rather use reward and punishment. In fact I have found that reward sees to have longer lasting results even than punishment. It may not be the same for everyone, but I tend to reinforce her slavery and confinement through use of bonds, rituals, protocols, restrictions, and rules. Also, require service tends to lead her towards a more service oriented attitude. Is this in anyway related to your query? Call me LL 20 Jan 09, 4:09 AM little_linnet US, 6 yrs Lord_Laraby wrote: Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? OK, how about the humiliation of being required to ask permission to spend money, which is a small and pretty much daily humiliation for me? The humiliation of sitting on the floor while an owner sits in a chair? The humiliation of being expected to be bored out of my mind, sitting quietly, while he does whatever he does on the computer? The humiliation of knowing my nudity or clothedness is in his hands and has nothing to do with my comfort? The humiliation of never having privacy? All these things are humiliations. They aren't stagy, elaborate fetishistic humiliations, no, but the root word of humiliation is "humility". All the little everyday things that establish and reinforce my status as a slave are humiliating, even though I experience most of them as positives. The feeling of humiliation is definitely there and I feel it as a happy little glow of being owned, being in a relationship with someone who can humiliate me in those small ways. It definitely strengthens my enslavement and affects my behavior. One of the times I remember most vividly was when I'd received my hardest beating ever (it still remains the hardest beating I've had) and I was *thisclose* to the brink of hysteria and freaking out. Mr L brought me back down by making me lie at his feet, suck on his fingers and drink from a glass he tipped for me, all of which both made me feel safe and grounded and also strengthened the message that I belonged to him, that I was subject to the things he did. It moved me from a frantic state of mind to a calm and submissive one. Krista The next time some man accuses you of hating men, explain that it isn't true or those brownies he's eating would be full of horse laxatives. Edited 20 Jan 09, 4:10 AM by little_linnet 20 Jan 09, 4:38 AM 276-730-264 US, 3 yrs little_linnet wrote: Lord_Laraby wrote: Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? OK, how about the humiliation of being required to ask permission to spend money, which is a small and pretty much daily humiliation for me? The humiliation of sitting on the floor while an owner sits in a chair? The humiliation of being expected to be bored out of my mind, sitting quietly, while he does whatever he does on the computer? The humiliation of knowing my nudity or clothedness is in his hands and has nothing to do with my comfort? The humiliation of never having privacy? All these things are humiliations. They aren't stagy, elaborate fetishistic humiliations, no, but the root word of humiliation is "humility". All the little everyday things that establish and reinforce my status as a slave are humiliating, even though I experience most of them as positives. The feeling of humiliation is definitely there and I feel it as a happy little glow of being owned, being in a relationship with someone who can humiliate me in those small ways. It definitely strengthens my enslavement and affects my behavior. One of the times I remember most vividly was when I'd received my hardest beating ever (it still remains the hardest beating I've had) and I was *thisclose* to the brink of hysteria and freaking out. Mr L brought me back down by making me lie at his feet, suck on his fingers and drink from a glass he tipped for me, all of which both made me feel safe and grounded and also strengthened the message that I belonged to him, that I was subject to the things he did. It moved me from a frantic state of mind to a calm and submissive one. Krista It is so well worth it to quote the entire thing. Well put Krista. Why is it so frequent that people consider M/s in the same category of bdsm?...and I do mean bdsm that stands alone as a kink versus bdsm directly connected to M/s. Can a slave who does not consistently reflect or be made to acknowledge her humility really be connected to his/her slavery? Maybe "humiliation" isn't seen as useful to some owners...and if that is the case, isn't it probable that the owner could potentially be omitting a very rudimentary part of what makes a slave? To Mistress Tiara: I don't personally feel what you described while happening. Normally for me it is either when my Master points it out or in hindsight. I do identify with your thoughts. Edited 20 Jan 09, 4:55 AM by 276-730-264 20 Jan 09, 6:11 AM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs 276-730-264 wrote: Can a slave who does not consistently reflect or be made to acknowledge her humility really be connected to his/her slavery? Maybe "humiliation" isn't seen as useful to some owners...and if that is the case, isn't it probable that the owner could potentially be omitting a very rudimentary part of what makes a slave? My relationship with my owner doesn't include intentional humiliation. While I do see the logic in what Krista says of them, the ideas she mentions wouldn't cause me to feel humiliation within the context of our relationship. That they would in a situation with strangers or those who didn't value me I have no doubt, but it's because the interaction would be based on the supposition and reality that self-direction and personal power are major indicators of validity as a person. Because our relationship doesn't hold with that idea I may feel irritation and/or frustration from it, my own value doesn't enter into it. That's not to say C's actions have never caused me humiliation but those that have have been much more intense/invasive in nature and the humiliation I felt was not part of his intent. So I think I disagree with your statement, but I'm interested. I may not entirely understand it, either. Will you expand on it, please? Any information is welcome, but in particular, please tell what part you feel it plays in the relationship, (as in, necessary to ensure a slave's understanding of a certain aspect of the relationship or for the complete experience of slavery as an aesthetic) and why you believe it's so. Thank you, Camille 20 Jan 09, 10:44 AM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! little_linnet wrote: Lord_Laraby wrote: Huh? No offense meant, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about? Humiliation as an element in training? How can real humiliation possibly benefit the slave in this scenario? OK, how about the humiliation of being required to ask permission to spend money, which is a small and pretty much daily humiliation for me? The humiliation of sitting on the floor while an owner sits in a chair? The humiliation of being expected to be bored out of my mind, sitting quietly, while he does whatever he does on the computer? The humiliation of knowing my nudity or clothedness is in his hands and has nothing to do with my comfort? The humiliation of never having privacy? All these things are humiliations. They aren't stagy, elaborate fetishistic humiliations, no, but the root word of humiliation is "humility". All the little everyday things that establish and reinforce my status as a slave are humiliating, even though I experience most of them as positives. The feeling of humiliation is definitely there and I feel it as a happy little glow of being owned, being in a relationship with someone who can humiliate me in those small ways. It definitely strengthens my enslavement and affects my behavior. One of the times I remember most vividly was when I'd received my hardest beating ever (it still remains the hardest beating I've had) and I was *thisclose* to the brink of hysteria and freaking out. Mr L brought me back down by making me lie at his feet, suck on his fingers and drink from a glass he tipped for me, all of which both made me feel safe and grounded and also strengthened the message that I belonged to him, that I was subject to the things he did. It moved me from a frantic state of mind to a calm and submissive one. Krista Hi, Krista I see your point, I think. I guess the primary point of confusion was that I didn't and don't consider those things humiliating, nor does angel. In fact she will tell everyone that she is not into humiliation at all. I suspect that those things might have a humbling affect on her, and they are well meant to do so. But to humiliate her? That, I suppose, is open for interpretation as you point out. For me humiliation and humbling are different things. But, I suspect for some they are synonymous. Thanks for giving me something to think on. Call me LL 20 Jan 09, 1:31 PM Mistress_Tiaras_boy 5 yrs Prior to being owned i was a dominant and humiliation was a tool i used for various reasons, most of which have been covered in the OP. i have to be honest, it was not until i was on the receiving end of it that i started to realise the full impact of it. i recognise that some Owners will feel their slaves may not benefit from it, that they might consider it to be harmful or they prefer to use other methods of training/maintenance. This is therefore a matter of choice, preference and of opinion. Personally, i see it as an effective method to achieve varying results, a tool, which you can use very gently or with as much gusto as you consider necessary. As with anything an Owner does, consideration of its impact must be fully given and any possible negative outcomes weighed against benefit. In my own case, Mistress needed to have a quite rigorous training regime at the onset of our relationship. Predominantly, because i am not a submissive person to anyone apart from Her. Plus there were some traits i had which displeased Her. One of these being humility, in short, i felt fairly superior to some people and rated myself more highly than i should have. Mistress used a number of techniques to address this, one of them being humiliation to varying degrees. At the time i knew what She was trying to achieve because i was informed why it was being used. Humiliation is a personal thing, so what is humiliating to one person may not be to another. i found this very difficult in the early days and still struggle sometimes when made to push further. What i had not expected was the overall impact it had. Take the example of having to ask for a drink, i personally found this humiliating even at home, but when i had to do it when we were out it was even worse. It was then even more humiliating when i had to ask in front of other people in public places. What is important is the other effects, by having to ask for a drink, it reinforced my Owners control, my submission, an element of ritual, Mistress' dominance over me and the move to TPE and towards IE. It also taught me that having a drink when i want one is a privilege and not a right, like so many other things. As an aside, i have wondered if i could ever reach a stage where my IE would be so total that nothing would humiliate me in any situation. Where the fact i was doing what pleased my Owner removed completely any degree of humiliation within me. That scares me ! To sum up, i think its a good tool, but like everything, used when needed and carefully. Mistress Tiara's beloved boy. 20 Jan 09, 5:31 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs Camille wrote: While I do see the logic in what Krista says of them, the ideas she mentions wouldn't cause me to feel humiliation within the context of our relationship. That they would in a situation with strangers or those who didn't value me I have no doubt, but it's because the interaction would be based on the supposition and reality that self-direction and personal power are major indicators of validity as a person. I think you're describing as humiliation what I would describe as shame. I don't feel shame in my relationship with Mr L -- well, at least I'm not supposed to, and if I do, then that's something to be changed. If I were to be humiliated in even these small ways in front of other people, I might very well feel shame because as you say, then the question of personal worth and whether it's wrong to be humiliated enters into it. The question of whether their opinion of me would be lowered might enter into it as well. Krista ... the ability to extend opportunity to every willing heart, not out of charity, but because it is the surest route to our common good. 20 Jan 09, 6:11 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I think I'm from the same batch as Krista! I don't see a lot of things, that perhaps others might, as humiliation. Such things as getting permission to leave the room to complete a task or fetchs something or to go to the bathroom. Not having money of my own or the ability to buy what I wish. The lack of privacy is no longer humiliating to me altho it certainly horrified me at the outset. So perhaps where I've skimmed over threads on humiliation thinking they didn't apply to me and it wasn't something either J or I was interested in, whilst all the time they did. <grins> I think I don't like the word (not that it's a factor) and I feel more comfortable in saying those things are humbling and a reminder but it's true that they do have an effect. If I take the example that bothered me and I really did feel embarrassed by - the lack of privacy - then its effects were far-reaching. This is one element of 'training' that J still pushes if he thinks there's any reluctance on my part and it does more than simply deprive of my privacy I can assure you! <laughs> It feeds through into all sorts of areas - communication, attitude, openness and discipline. A lot of the others and even this have brought benefits I didn't recognise were entailed. They feel more like methods of bringing me in closer, safer and more owned, and keep me focused. Definitely onto something here MT. I shall enjoy discussing with J. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** Edited 21 Jan 09, 11:02 AM by anjuli 20 Jan 09, 6:22 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs I so agree with anjuli.... makes me wonder if this is what's "wrong" with us right now. I've got so much freedom and privacy right now, it's leaking into other things. I like the humility-responce from asking permission, and kneeling, sitting on the floor and such. My Owner sees it as unnessecery and bothersome, however, so... Can I shout "he's doin' it wroooong"? *ahem* Smile, it confuses people. Next page