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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "The Gift" 1 2 3 4 The Gift (35) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 20 Jan 09, 10:51 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs I'm having difficulties with the gift thing myself, p. I know, for me, my Owner frequently requires that I submit happily. He will not force me, most of the time, he'll sit back and fuck around in my head until I accept and follow him - happily. I'm not sure if that's "drawing it out", like you say, or him forcing my volontary submission. Sometimes I get confused. Smile, it confuses people. 21 Jan 09, 2:24 AM 119-812-164 US, 3 yrs anjuli wrote: It seems to me that this concept of submission as a gift is one which has gained currency in the online world. I don't think it's necessarily bad intentions altho there is this problem with resolving the expectation of return for the gift at some level even if it's unconscious. I personally was told about this at the outset when I was exploring online and learning and I've come to the conclusion that it's largely a construct to help protect new subs... to help them to value what they're offering and key them in to not settling for less than they should. But it tends not to last in my experience and in talking to others... we leave it behind at some point and see more of the depth. Just another way of looking at it that's perhaps more middle ground? anjuli hi anjuli, et al, i just wanted to add that i practiced with Dominants in RL, and the notion of submission as a gift in D/s (not M/s) was always prevalent within the small community in which i began, prior to M/s coming into my life. [editing to note 'non-emotional' and 'non-domestic' D/s] i wonder if it was different for others, too, as it was for me in that the idea wasn't presented as something temporary, or something that one would evolve 'out' of, either in my work as a submissive or my apprenticeship as Domina. it's the first time, too, that i've thought about the notion that to give a gift would suppose expectation of return. Master Fire mentioned this as well. i hadn't been taught as much or considered it. my experience is just my own, but i don't think that my mentor Dominants usurped the notion from the internet and brought it into their RL established practice. just another perspective, if that's any help at all. it's only been since i've 'migrated' to M/s that the idea seems a bit foreign in the Ownership and M/s community that i am coming into contact with more and more. from what i have read on the boards here, some didn't actually move from D/s into M/s as i did, and so it surprises me that the idea is as odd or foreign as it is in some ways, but also understanding the dynamics of TPE, it makes more sense. i've been taking stock lately of ways that serious D/s practice can be differentiated from serious M/s practice and maybe 'the gift' idea is one of them. i'm wondering now about the kinds of demographics that separate 'how' we practice and 'what' we believe -- race, class, geography, etc. for example, my limitations are geographical since my play in D/s which turned to practice in D/s which turned to service in M/s has been strictly of one region, and also racial since i have been involved strictly with Black kink dynamics. we're all coming at the question from so many different perspectives in so many different geographical places. it's curious to me ... smiles, grl The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.-- Alfred Lord Tennyson To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong. --Joseph Chilton Pearce Edited 21 Jan 09, 2:29 AM by 119-812-164 22 Jan 09, 10:57 PM crystalredroze US(OH), 4 yrs Y! ive been looking at this topic since it was posted and keep trying to really digest it and this is what ive came up with. Both partners are giving a gift to each other. The slave chooses to serve their Master, just as i have chosen to give myself to my Master and in that he gets everything i am and everything i have ( or should i say had) . There are many parts of my slavery to Master that i could go into but it would end up a book as i'm sure is the case for most situations here. In turn His gift to me is in ensuring me that he will care for me and see that i'm protected and kept safe. It would be hard to say who have given the greatest gift as both are equally important and you cant have one without the other. 23 Jan 09, 9:05 AM shary_MrBart NL, 3 yrs A gift? Yes, a gift from God that my Master found me. shary, owned by Master Bart 23 Jan 09, 8:10 PM submissiveheart US(NY), 6 yrs Remoses wrote: The Gift I also wonder about this supposed "gift" of service. Is this not so different from women who use their sexuality as a bargaining tool to negotiate an agreeable position with a Man? Anyway, is that not a little dishonest or dishonorable? Is that not using sex as a bargaining chip? Is that not so different from selling sex? But look we are all culpable in these transactions, Men and women alike. All of us participate in these bargains. But still, I wonder about the "gift of service". What are your thoughts? I am Remoses. Hey there, Well this post really made me think and that is because it was something I wanted to post but with a different agenda (and decided not to). At times it seems to me that slavery from a submissive woman's perspective looks akin to a type of sex work, but more rather sex vocation. She offers up her domestic services and sexual services for a place to live and a place to grow. Because it fulfills so many needs, it is more a vocation though. When you have submissive women traveling across the country to live with a man they haven't even met except for online, the parallels are there. In sex work (I studied sex work as part of my MS degree) there are more than temporary transactional relationships--there are long-term relationships. Sugar daddies, male-order brides, these are elements of the trade. I know Doms go on and on that it is the sub that controls the relationship if it is like a sugar daddy but that is not how social science sees it. The playing field is drawn up by men but the women play a part with their own will--just within the playing field of the man. A savy woman will "bargain" for more for herself, but she is always vulnerable to be dropped by a guy and left to fend for herself. Anyway, I didn't post it because I didn't think it would go over well! Didn't want to offend but only make people think (and myself) on this issue. Is this dishonest? Um, nooooo, in my opinion. Everything, as I see it, is transactional. If money isn't involved, emotions are. I think the idea behind a "gift" perception is so that that men (and I think this is about men as this doesn't seem to crop up in gay M/s subculture) don't feel entitled to submission by female submissives. And I think that is a good thing. Given that there is still a great deal of inequality in the world (the political landscape is a good example) between male and female genders, yeah, I don't want some guy thinking he is entitled to anything from me, unless our relationship has progressed to that point where I trust him enough to let go of control. Once a relationship passes that threshold of on-going consent, it is different. But, I must say that in my healing process I was counseled by three different experts in D/s and M/s (with counseling experience and training) and they all pointed out that as a sub--or slave--you are supposed to be given something in return. It is not a relationship of exploitation. *Reciprocity* I hope this makes sense to people and I'll happily clarify if it doesn't. 19 May 09, 3:32 PM 000-733-561 BE, 11 yrs Y! The only gift I ever gave was when I gave my whole being to my Mistress. I thank Her for Her efforts to make me a better slave/husband, but from that point on it was only natural to serve Her as She wishes. -- Husband/slave from blmtrsne -- 26 May 09, 1:52 PM 779-061-353 US(MO), 4 yrs Y! if a person's submisson to another can be considered a gift? hmmm well... i guess it would depend on your point of view of it. However... a gift is something you 'give' to someone once and do not expect it back from the person. those who 'use' their 'gift of submission' to make things happen in their life, then its not a gift.... then they are using it like a tool for them. For them its a tool to get what they want. A gift is not expected back.. the childhood adage of 'no takebacks' or 'indian giver' comes to mind with this. a 24/7 relashonship (pardon spelling errors) would be a gift because the slave/submissive gives his/her very life to their owner. therefore that in my opinon would be a gift. Edited after pondering an hour to say : its also like a wife who says (and i've seen it in my current household) "if you love me you'll (insert random chore)" my Master's wife does this same thing about 6-10 times a day tring to use the 'gift' of His feelings for her to motivate Him to do things. written kneeling at His feet, leash frimly in place Come check out this girl's writings http://www.freewebs.com/bardic/ Master Silver Wolf approves all this grl's posts they MUST pass his approval before posting Edited 26 May 09, 3:52 PM by 779-061-353 27 May 09, 11:52 PM 361-703-869 US(FL), 4 yrs i can appreciate the logic of your statement, but my Master says that the greatest gift i've given Him after my love is my submission. i would never use my position in order to coerce Him to doing something for me, or relieving me of any of my duties. i concur that there are no "take backs", but there doesn't need to be the sense of that in any relationship. In O/our TPE relationship, i am His until He decides otherwise. With respect and fondness to you all, luthien of Beren 28 May 09, 9:28 PM his_slavepet US(GA), 4 yrs Y! I don't necessarily feel that a slave gives a "gift" of service. A gift implies something given, for a slave, service is required. The gift that is given is in an M/s relationship is the gift of the slave herself at the beginning of servitude and the gift of ownership by the Master. After that, what transpires between a Master and a slave is about duty, reciprocity, honour of the agreement between both parties and (if both parties are lucky) affection. To say that service is a gift is to imply that it is not required and that it is an item that can be taken back or not given at all. Service is a requirement of slaves, as ownership is a requirement of Masters. One is not given in return of the other, both are given because of the nature of the relationship that is formed when a Master takes a slave. Furthermore, service is to a slave as a whetting stone is to a knife. It is service that trains the slave to be a better person and a better servant. For this reason, it is more of a gift to HER than from her. And the giver would be the Master, not the slave. A Master, in general, gives a lot to a slave. He provides structure, guidance, acceptance, approval and a willingness to work with her and through her to make improvements to herself and, lastly, his own life. It is a slave's duty, therefore, to show her gratitude by providing the best service she can. It is only right. These are, of course, my humble thoughts as a slave and are not meant to contradict or anger anyone...they are simply what my mind and heart say are true for me...be blessed on your paths. jpet "You are indeed beautiful, worthy and capable, and you will become even more so, my dear slavepet, under my hand. We will make the trip together." - Master David 30 May 09, 7:25 AM pyroaquatic 5 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: Joshua's submission to me is indeed a gift ... but not a gift from him. It's a gift from the Universe to me, from the Powers That Be, and therefore I must not abuse that gift or it might be taken away from me ... again, not by him, but by Them. That's how I see it. -Raven Kaldera Does a D/O/M submit to the Universe and all of its Phenomena? Along that same token, with a slave seeing Master as God, are You a Phenomenon? i'm not sure about this gift thing. it is like taking a turkey baser, taking all of the water out of the cup and putting it in the same one. that is how i feel. Next page