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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Assertive or Obsequious?" 1 2 3 Assertive or Obsequious? (30) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Fri 16 Jan 09, 9:07 PM boston UK, 12 yrs With the recent differing views on politeness here, I wanted to pose a few thoughts and questions re the above. Over the years I have seen many who think that slaves have to be obsequious to the point of nausea to prove they are a slave, and not only to dominants but to everyone as though it is a badge of just how “slave like” they are. It is often thought of as part of the so called “slave-like behaviour” which doesn't really exist beyond the realms of the internet and the fevered imaginations of those who dream of a rose coloured world where they kneel at their imagined master's knee and do very little but be “pleasing” and smile at everyone as if that makes them a better more righteous person. I would argue that those in a full time live in M/s relationship see things a little differently, but would accept that those in LDR's have their own views and maybe others do to! I am an assertive, intelligent and capable slave – I don't always get things right but then as Andrin has pointed out, no one here is perfect. My owner requires and knows that I am polite and respectful where it is due - and that I am usually more than capable of making that distinction for myself. If I get it wrong then fair enough and I accept the consequences. He doesn't want me any different to that so it suits us. In fact all the slaves I have ever met, or those who strongly wish to be or are working towards it, (in the WIKI definition of course), have been strong assertive people whether male or female and I am convinced that that is because which decent dominant would want anything else? Are there any Owners out there who want obsequious slaves? The board needs to know! So we have two antithetical traits – with a possible “slider” between – anyone care to comment on where they are on this line, and why? And any owners / masters who have preferences for what traits they prefer? By the way “being polite” is not in the middle just in case you haven't worked that out yet b^ 16 Jan 09, 9:18 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs Oh my, what a great post. I don't have any deep thoughts at the moment but I did want to add that one of the things Mr L wants me to be, as far as possible, is self-guarding property. That is to say, he wants me to be able to hold the border against possible physical, emotional or intellectual damage. I can't do any of this if I'm obsequious. I know you're a dog person so I bet you've heard the old jokes about why a Lab doesn't make a good guard dog: if an intruder came a Lab would open the door, show them where the silver is and help them load the truck. This isn't true of all Labs, as I know from personal experience, but the point is, Mr L doesn't want me to be a "Lab", he wants me to be a Border Collie or a schutzhund. Someone who will look after his interests with endless devotion but look sidewise and maybe even snarl when someone crosses those interests. Krista The majority here come here because it is a place to exchange ideas, not to release fluids. 16 Jan 09, 9:38 PM property_of_MacCain 4 yrs MacCain wants to know exactly what i'm thinking... as long as i'm respectful. He enjoys that i have my own opinions and voice them. He expects me to present information to Him that might sway His opinion if He was aware. This makes me much more useful to Him than if i were a "yes man". He has expressed numerous times that it speaks volumes about Mr.L, for instance, that He can keep Krista. Only a strong leader can lead a strong person... and what fun would it be to lead lemmings? So from the MacCain camp... respectful assertiveness. Where is that on the scale? p i breathe because He allows me, indulging Him indulges me. 16 Jan 09, 9:47 PM Domone65 UK, 3 yrs Y! boston wrote: Assertive or Obsequious? With the recent differing views on politeness here, I wanted to pose a few thoughts and questions re the above. Over the years I have seen many who think that slaves have to be obsequious to the point of nausea to prove they are a slave, and not only to dominants but to everyone as though it is a badge of just how “slave like” they are. It is often thought of as part of the so called “slave-like behaviour” which doesn't really exist beyond the realms of the internet and the fevered imaginations of those who dream of a rose coloured world where they kneel at their imagined master's knee and do very little but be “pleasing” and smile at everyone as if that makes them a better more righteous person. I would argue that those in a full time live in M/s relationship see things a little differently, but would accept that those in LDR's have their own views and maybe others do to! I am an assertive, intelligent and capable slave – I don't always get things right but then as Andrin has pointed out, no one here is perfect. My owner requires and knows that I am polite and respectful where it is due - and that I am usually more than capable of making that distinction for myself. If I get it wrong then fair enough and I accept the consequences. He doesn't want me any different to that so it suits us. In fact all the slaves I have ever met, or those who strongly wish to be or are working towards it, (in the WIKI definition of course), have been strong assertive people whether male or female and I am convinced that that is because which decent dominant would want anything else? Are there any Owners out there who want obsequious slaves? The board needs to know! So we have two antithetical traits – with a possible “slider” between – anyone care to comment on where they are on this line, and why? And any owners / masters who have preferences for what traits they prefer? By the way “being polite” is not in the middle just in case you haven't worked that out yet b^ I can only answer from a D/s point of veiw , Firstly in the "nilla" world, my subbie is naturally well spoken and respectful, intelligent and opinionated, which is part of the reason i chose her. Should anyone show her disrespect i would expect her to retaliate and if i was present, i would obviously make them very sorry. In our world she still has a mind of her own and i respect her for that... i could never consider being with a doormat. She does have her bratty moments and would run circles around a weaker personality , but she knows i will not tolerate that and she will come down to earth with a bump if she tries. We do openly discuss aspects of life and if i cast something in stone , although she may not agree at the time, in the long run she knows it is for her own good as i take the responsibility of owning her very seriously. Rick 16 Jan 09, 10:30 PM 119-812-164 US, 3 yrs boston wrote: Over the years I have seen many who think that slaves have to be obsequious to the point of nausea to prove they are a slave, and not only to dominants but to everyone as though it is a badge of just how “slave like” they are. It is often thought of as part of the so called “slave-like behaviour” which doesn't really exist beyond the realms of the internet and the fevered imaginations of those who dream of a rose coloured world where they kneel at their imagined master's knee and do very little but be “pleasing” and smile at everyone as if that makes them a better more righteous person. I would argue that those in a full time live in M/s relationship see things a little differently, but would accept that those in LDR's have their own views and maybe others do to! this is a great topic. while i respect your opinion, i have seen so much evidence and experience to the contrary of your assumption about the disposition of slaves in 'real' 24/7 M/s relationships. the fact is that there are as many 'kinds' of slaves in 24/7 relationships as there are kinds of people, some stereotypical, some strong, some bucking, some topping from the bottom, some nameless, some with their 'selves' excised ... every kind of slave. to suppose that there is not and that a community can really be so specific, and another can be only fantasy, supposes a premise that explains why some might be more easily 'received' in certain community corners of the lifestyle than others. perhaps it may seem that there is a particular 'type' of slave because that's all that you might see from your community perspective. slaves who are more submissive, more demure, more stereotypically 'slave-like' would also most likely not feel comfortable posting here, may not be allowed to post, and may not feel a need if their dispositions are so much of that nature. i honestly don't believe that this difference in a 'type' of slave can be attributed to whether it's a 'full time live in M/s relationship' or an LDR and supposing so is curious; i wonder what it says about our perceptions. on the 'slider' i'm an assertive woman and am in control most of the time. my submission extends specifically to my Daddy and extends as far as He requires me to extend it. thanks a lot for posting a topic that seems so important to talk about. smiles, grl The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.-- Alfred Lord Tennyson To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong. --Joseph Chilton Pearce Edited 16 Jan 09, 10:32 PM by 119-812-164 16 Jan 09, 11:24 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs Domone65 wrote: In our world she still has a mind of her own and i respect her for that... i could never consider being with a doormat. She does have her bratty moments and would run circles around a weaker personality , but she knows i will not tolerate that and she will come down to earth with a bump if she tries. Hi and welcome. I'd be interested if you could describe what, in your relationship, is the line between having a mind of her own/not being a doormat, and being bratty. What kind of criteria makes one behavior valuable to you and the next behavior undesirable for your purposes? It sounds like this line is at a different place for interactions with you than it is for interactions with others, am I correct? So, where is the line when she interacts with others? Krista The next time some man accuses you of hating men, explain that it isn't true or those brownies he's eating would be full of horse laxatives. 16 Jan 09, 11:31 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs boston wrote: Assertive or Obsequious? Are there any Owners out there who want obsequious slaves? The board needs to know! So we have two antithetical traits – with a possible “slider” between – anyone care to comment on where they are on this line, and why? And any owners / masters who have preferences for what traits they prefer? By the way “being polite” is not in the middle just in case you haven't worked that out yet Hi b - Good thread! I think there's a danger it may be misunderstood however. We're not talking about a sliding scale from submissive and quiet in nature at one end - to - assertive at the other. What you're really highlighting I think is a tendency for some to put themselves and their service at the centre of things? Which is a bit like bad, intrusive service in a restaurant. After all it is the service and the comfort of the M that is the focus not the 'display' put on by the s! The idea is not for the s to pester the M for attention in return for that service. So yes, I agree. I doubt that there are many D/O/Ms who would want an obsequious slave. Most want service to be quiet and unobtrusive... with a bit of class, if you like. And they like controlling a real, fully functioning human being. Having a power exchange and lack of conflict does not conflate with one party being the mythical slave doormat. I agree that most real life slaves are strong and assertive. It certainly doesn't mean they're not capable of quietness, or even that they're not shy at times or that they have no doubts or insecurities... many of us live fairly isolated lives and might well display some of those traits too. But I think the journey to real life M/s is one that demands courage and breeds strength. You can be strong and assertive, intelligent and engaged, and still have a soft, pliant and gentle nature with your M. You can be less assertive in nature and still be strong and intelligent and it's insulting to assume otherwise. Personally J supports me in being assertive and wants to see me fulfilling my potential and being all that I can be. He likes to see me able to take care of myself, take charge if he wishes me to and to stand my ground with those who would undermine me. He also cherishes the softer side and the quietness and peace. He has helped me more than I can say to be far more confident than I was ever before because I know now that emotionally, physically and in every other way, totally secure here at home with him. Hope I haven't strayed too far in trying to bring the focus back on track here. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 16 Jan 09, 11:59 PM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! boston wrote: Assertive or Obsequious? With the recent differing views on politeness here, I wanted to pose a few thoughts and questions re the above. So we have two antithetical traits – with a possible “slider” between – anyone care to comment on where they are on this line, and why? And any owners / masters who have preferences for what traits they prefer? By the way “being polite” is not in the middle just in case you haven't worked that out yet b^ Hello, I imagine this rant may get me some dark looks and maybe some heated disagreement, but I will express my ideas anyway. Please take this as my conclusion only. The whole idea of the nature of slave communication pertains to her desire to appear attractive or beautiful to certain individuals - specifically to dominant ones. Take for instance the unowned seeking slave-to-be. She is likely to want to display her beauty and desirability to any and all dominant individuals (maybe of a specific sex) and will on message and chat boards do so in various ways. For instance, calling them Sir or Maám or asking instead of telling, etc. One of these ways is her demeaner and whether that be through politeness, obsequiousness, deference or demureness she tries to make herself pleasing and desirable in general. This will garnish her the desired attention. The other side of the coin is the owned and happy slave who now lives to please one and only one master in her life. Her demeanor is likely to be a little to a lot different that her unowned sister. She does not have the same motivations when posting and chatting. It is a bit akin to what happens to many very beautiful and erotically charged attractive single women when the marriage rings and vows have been exchanged. YMMV, but I have seen countless examples of the wife letting herself go in appearance and carriage. It doesn't happen immediately or overnight. It isn't a concious choice that she makes. It takes place as her security that her relationship will provide becomes more evident and certain. She just does not have to put forth the extra effort to please the male world. I have discovered that it is almost always possible to pick unmarried (or newly married) women out of croud for this very reason. It's similarly not impossible to tell an unowned slave from an owned one for similar reasons. As far as demanding or requiring this beauty of demeaner and expression... I don't. But it is nice to see the ones who are trying to make a positive impression doing so. As far as I am concerned, an owned slave can present herself in as ugly, opinionated, know-it-allish, loud-mouthed and crass a fashion as she desires. She is not something I would be interested in anyways. So, I ignore it. Thanks for reading this rant. Call me LL Edited 17 Jan 09, 12:08 AM by Lord_Laraby 17 Jan 09, 12:30 AM Domone65 UK, 3 yrs Y! little_linnet wrote: Domone65 wrote: In our world she still has a mind of her own and i respect her for that... i could never consider being with a doormat. She does have her bratty moments and would run circles around a weaker personality , but she knows i will not tolerate that and she will come down to earth with a bump if she tries. Hi and welcome. I'd be interested if you could describe what, in your relationship, is the line between having a mind of her own/not being a doormat, and being bratty. What kind of criteria makes one behavior valuable to you and the next behavior undesirable for your purposes? It sounds like this line is at a different place for interactions with you than it is for interactions with others, am I correct? So, where is the line when she interacts with others? Krista Firstly i probably used the word doormat in a flippant way, to me it is a description of someone who serves relentlesly and never questions anything or feels they are worthy of an opinion and certainly never does anything to provoke punishment. This is a behavoural pattern i would find no challenge in. My /s is a strong assertive and confident person in her own right and and in interactions with others displays her personality as it is. Her interactions with me are a world apart as she shows me the greatest deal of respect and she looks to me for guidance. To quote her, when she is being bratty , 99% of the time she is aware of the fact whether she is doing it intentionally or not. She has the option to ask as many questions as she wishes regarding what i ask of her , if they are valid i will go to great lengths to explain , but if she is purely being bratty we both know! I would never for one moment suggest our way is the right way , it is the way it works for us and suits our personalities. Whichever road you choose to take i hope it takes you where you want to be. Rick 17 Jan 09, 9:55 AM boston UK, 12 yrs anjuli wrote: We're not talking about a sliding scale from submissive and quiet in nature at one end - to - assertive at the other. What you're really highlighting I think is a tendency for some to put themselves and their service at the centre of things? Which is a bit like bad, intrusive service in a restaurant. Very much so - as in Barbara's great examples later. Thanks for clarifying - it was late and I was tired anjuli wrote: But I think the journey to real life M/s is one that demands courage and breeds strength. You can be strong and assertive, intelligent and engaged, and still have a soft, pliant and gentle nature with your M. You can be less assertive in nature and still be strong and intelligent and it's insulting to assume otherwise. Spot on. Personally I have been on that real life track now for nearly 27 years and it has had its trials and tribulations, but it does give you the experience to see through the sillier side and to really gain self knowledge as an essential precursor to the path to IE. I have to say also that whilst I might be unusual in this (though I don't think so) the posturing and antics of the unowned in desperate attempts to find or gain the attention of a dominant make me cringe. Not only do I think they are unnecessary for the person who really wishes to submit, and may be a result again of the influence of the internet (see Barb's example below of the unasked for "serve") but may also actually turn away the good Dominants of this world with their sycophantic nature. But then I suppose we get what we deserve in the end, usually ...QED! 17 Jan 09, 4:18 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs I think there have been some really interesting observations on this thread. Personally I selected a slave who is capable of being very assertive and forthright. This simply reflects my preferences and boredom threshold for a long term relationship. Obsequious service would not be pleasing to me at all. I like my boy to behave respectfully at all times, being suitably deferential as part of this. I also expect him to be pro-active, dynamic and assertive as part of his service to me, when it is appropriate. This sliding in and out of 'states' happens fairly seemlessly, as he has learned when I condsider it appropriate for him to behave in certain ways. I see this as all part of his service to me. I have little interest in obsequious service, and personally see it as unnecessary and somewhat pantomime in nature. Again this reflects simply my preference, as I believe the role of any slave is to please their Owner as their Owner wishes, be that overt or subtle. I come across many submissives who attempt to please me by elaborate displays of submission, and while I appreciate the effort and intention I am far more interested in a polite, confident individual who engages my attention by more engaging/ subtle behaviour. I personally find obsequious service to be rather clumsy. I like my boy to be pro-active as well as simply reactive. For example I like him to have learned that in situation X I will want him to do Y, rather than having to say to him 'Do Y now'. I also like him to think about what may be appropriate and make any suggestions he may have. I value my boys intellect very highly and see it as a useful asset to my household. My boys strengths and capabilities played a large part in why I decided to make him my slave. him using these strengths and abilities is not something I wish to inhibit, as long as they are used within the guidelines for conduct he has. I am more proud to own strong, capable, interesting, intelligent, dynamic property than I would be to own someone who just said 'Yes, Mistress' and looked pretty. The other slave's I find most interesting tend also to be astute engaged strong individuals. I would like to add that I agree with Lord Larby's observations about unowned submissives seeking ownership demonstrating their submission in more obvious compliant ways to show what they could be. I see this more with men that women. This is why when I encounter people who are showing me overt submission (within limits ) I try to remember they may be doing it with the best of intentions. I realise that on the surface, subtle and pro-active service may sound an odd combination, but it is what I like and it works for us. I wonder if anyone else enjoys this? 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. Next page