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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Distinction between methodology and 'aims' in M/s" 1 2 3 Distinction between methodology and 'aims' in M/s (22) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Fri 2 Jan 09, 6:28 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs I was recently asked about my reasoning behind various actions and techniques I undertake in M/s. When I answered along these lines "I do X because I want to bring about this result & I considered this to be a good technique to use in this outcome", I was a little surprised by the responses. I am starting to realise that my understanding of the object of M/s may be different to many others and would like to explore this here, and hear any other thoughts. It has been suggested to me that (to paraphrase) the aim of M/s should effectively be to improve the slave as an individual, and to protect and guide them. I find this antithetical to M/s as an overall goal, as it seems to me that this would actually be focussing on the slave's personal development rather than their service to their Owner. I am not suggesting that personal developments may not be of service to their Owner of course; many undoubtedly will be and indeed I require and encourage many myself; but I do not believe that such personal development of the slave is the 'aim' of M/s. I have been surprised to learn that my view is sometimes seen as radical and therefore wonder if I've missed an alternate idea regarding process and aims. I understand that the establishment of M/s in essence comes about as a symbiotic union. By this I mean simply that slaves for whatever individual reasons or needs they may have seek slavery as the result of a desire to be a enslaved and as such their Owners feed this need. It is here I believe that the primary 'protection and guidance' needs or desires of a slave are most significantly fulfilled in the long term. I see this initial symbiotic coming together as being a different matter to the relationship moving forward from this point with the slave's psychological journey as the focussed outcome however. Altering or developing a slave's emotional/ mental/ spiritual/ practical/ intellectual/ physical abilities and developing them is undoubtedly central to much of the practice of enslavement, but surely this should ultimately be with the aim of making the slave more useful to their Owner and more in keeping with their Owners wishes? I see these techniques as the means to the creation of this end goal. I do not see this idea as being uncaring to slaves and therefore against the spirit of M/s. To focus on outcome seems to sometimes be percieved as being inherently damaging to a slave, and this to me suggests a belief that a slave's psychological journey is at the heart of M/s which I find confusing. I see that while maintaining a slave's psychological wellbeing and assisting them on their journey is an essential matter of morality, honour, and common sense, and obviously important for a slaves sense of wellbeing and stability, that guiding a slave through a psychological journey is not the primary function of an M/s relationship. It seems to me that if focus on the slave's psychological journey becomes the overall premise of M/s it cannot be literal M/s, as the Owner is effectively dedicating their energies to their slave's development as a goal in it's own right, rather than to bring about a bigger, longer term goal of having the slave they want, complete with the necessary skills and mental processes their Owner desires. I am not suggesting that a slave should not be guided, helped, protected, and cared for, and I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with loving and cherishing one's slave. I see this as different to suggesting that these actions should be the 'aim' of M/s though. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do others see this clear distinction between techniques and aim? Is this distinction between goal and journey seen differently by slaves than Owners perhaps? Do those who have been in M/s longer than I see things in a different way? I look forward to people's responses 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. Edited Fri 2 Jan 09, 8:16 PM by Mistress_Tiara 2 Jan 09, 7:31 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I follow you completely MT and what you're saying seems perfectly sensible and straightforward to me. I'm afraid I shall be surprised if a lot see it differently and that your view that the slave's journey or development is not the be-all and end-all of an M/s relationship is contentious... or that fact is somehow cruel or wrong. So I shall be awaiting developments here with interest and curiosity but I'm sure that many will agree with you. I think we focus a lot on these subjects and elements of M/s here because we have a large population of subs and slaves who are thinking, examining what is happening to them and are good at self-analysis. M/s teaches you to be open and honest with yourself after all and encourages a lot of thought about emotional issues. And I think we start out this way... thinking of it as our journey, our search. That's because the discovery of yourself as submissive and the work that goes into accepting that and then finding a way to make it real safely, focuses on the sub's development as a matter of necessity surely? Once with your Master tho things change rapidly and drastically and I think most of us go thro a period of adjustment and refocusing. Of course a good D/O/M is concerned for the healthy and proper development of his/her slave but s/he's also pretty darn focussed on that s developing the way s/he wants. I can't count the number of times I've revisited threads where Raven reminded us (and sometimes me) that it's NOT all about us! It took me some time for reasons of my own... and still returns to haunt me now and then... but no, it sure is NOT all about me and my development. Certainly, my growth is part of the plan that J has for a happy, peaceful existence and a harmonious and satisfying life with his devoted slave to serve and adore him - me being happy too is part of it - but definitely not the goal. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 2 Jan 09, 7:39 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs anjuli wrote: I think we focus a lot on these subjects and elements of M/s here because we have a large population of subs and slaves who are thinking, examining what is happening to them and are good at self-analysis. Yes, I should add that I do understand that as the board here is mostly used by slaves, and that as it is the slave who is undergoing the directed changes, upheavals, working things through etc, the posting membership here will consist mostly of the enslaved. I am not seeing that as indicative of focus within their M/s relationships, just of the board anjuli wrote: I'm afraid I shall be surprised if a lot see it differently and that your view that the slave's journey or development is not the be-all and end-all of an M/s relationship is contentious... or that fact is somehow cruel or wrong. So I shall be awaiting developments here with interest and curiosity but I'm sure that many will agree with you. Yes, it seems non-contentious to me, and I can't reconcile the process I engage in with 'cruelty'. I am wondering though about any thoughts on distinction in process and aim, which may explain the other views I've come across. For people with a different view of aims, what I think may not be so non-contentious, and I am therefore wondering how distinguishing between process and aim changes any end goal of M/s. I wonder if there are other ideas on process and aim I have not considered. 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. Edited 2 Jan 09, 8:10 PM by Mistress_Tiara 2 Jan 09, 7:39 PM ClairesCO UK, 3 yrs Hey Mistress Tiara, This is the second thread on definitions I've found myself attracted to in the last 24 hours. I can't give you the perspective of someone who knows what they're doing but I can give you the perspective of someone who's almost 3 weeks in. I'm replying because I am certain of one thing so far and that's that I'm not going to let definitions guide how I act, even though I've found myself studying them and interested in them. If that means I end up as some pseudo dom who has to sit by themselves in the corner at parties then I can live with that. There is no one journey. On mine my partner is my focus. That's what makes me happy and I love the loophole that says that what the dom wants he/she should get. If that means I'm not M/s or even D/s then I'm not. That doesn't make my partner's desire for submission any less than anyone else's, it just makes me me. I can still be in charge, value Claire's submissive side and make sure our relationship meets both our needs without the labels. Claire will just have to be the unfortunate sub who's got the wierd dom. I take your point completely, and I completely respect what you're saying. We all need to do what's right for us and our significant others. Maybe we need a few more (insert capital letter of your choice here)/s terms to catch us all. Be interesting to see how this topic develops. Will Edited 2 Jan 09, 7:42 PM by ClairesCO 2 Jan 09, 7:47 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs ClairesCO wrote: Hey Mistress Tiara, This is the second thread on definitions I've found myself attracted to in the last 24 hours. Thanks for replying Will. To clarify, I am in no way trying to create a 'definition' thread, rather I am simply looking at M/s in terms of process and goals. I agree that everyone should run their relationships how they want, and that while definitions may be useful for discourse they are not any kind of measure or objective per se 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. 2 Jan 09, 7:49 PM ClairesCO UK, 3 yrs Mistress_Tiara wrote: ClairesCO wrote: This is the second thread on definitions I've found myself attracted to in the last 24 hours. Thanks for replying Will. To clarify, I am in no way trying to create a 'definition' thread, rather I am simply looking at M/s in terms of process and goals. I agree that everyone should run their relationships how they want I didn't mean that in a bad way, more in an "i barely understand most of the definitions" way. Sorry if I came off like that. Claires got flu and I'm bored, that's probably got a lot to do with my posting too Will 2 Jan 09, 7:52 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Hi Will, I didn't take your post in any way badly, I was just clarifying what I meant. Hope Claire's flu gets better soon 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. 2 Jan 09, 8:36 PM 688-764-833 US, 5 yrs Mistress_Tiara wrote: ...Altering or developing a slave's emotional/ mental/ spiritual/ practical/ intellectual/ physical abilities and developing them is undoubtedly central to much of the practice of enslavement, but surely this should ultimately be with the aim of making the slave more useful to their Owner and more in keeping with their Owners wishes? I see these techniques as the means to the creation of this end goal. This is exactly how my master sees it as well. I don't think you can achieve M/s (and IE) without that focus at the beginning of the relationship but no, I do not think it is the goal of M/s. For us the goal is the enhancement his life. Mistress_Tiara wrote: To focus on outcome seems to sometimes be perceived as being inherently damaging to a slave, and this to me suggests a belief that a slave's psychological journey is at the heart of M/s. I think it can only be damaging when a D/O/M expects to get from point “C” to point “N” simply by commanding it instead of putting in the time and effort to facilitate the transitions. In my opinion one must have the desired outcome planned out and be consciously working towards it, otherwise it does become all about the s-type and yet s-types (usually) enter into this type of relationship to serve another; if it's “all about them” it's no longer what they were looking for. Cheers, Leesie 2 Jan 09, 8:41 PM The_Apprentice UK, 3 yrs MT, would you accept that the D/O/M has a responsibility not to develop the slave in a way that damages them? Sorry if this is a stupid question! 2 Jan 09, 8:57 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Yes - absolutely. The phrasing I used in my initial post was to describe this as a 'matter of morality, honour, and common sense'. I believe the logistics of what this involves will be different in each relationship however. 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. Edited 2 Jan 09, 9:24 PM by Mistress_Tiara 2 Jan 09, 9:01 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs 688-764-833 wrote: I think it can only be damaging when a D/O/M expects to get from point “C” to point “N” simply by commanding it instead of putting in the time and effort to facilitate the transitions. In my opinion one must have the desired outcome planned out and be consciously working towards it, otherwise it does become all about the s-type and yet s-types (usually) enter into this type of relationship to serve another; if it's “all about them” it's no longer what they were looking for. Yes, that makes sense. I agree that a slave's development needs to be carefully and methodically managed by their Owner. I would imagine that to do otherwise would be both damaging (in the micro and macro sense) and ineffective. 'It's the fire in my eyes, And the flash of my teeth, The swing of my waist, And the joy in my feet. I'm a woman, Phenomenally, Phenomenal woman - That's me'. Next page