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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "unable to leave?" 1 2 unable to leave? (15) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Fri 2 Jan 09, 2:28 AM thekittenpup 4 yrs So i have been thinking and am curious about something. Now i know that a large part of IE and TPE is that the slave is unable to leave. Now of course in many relationships there is the standard "i cant live without you i will never leave you" rigamarole but it things dont work a partner can exit the relationship, via whatever means works for them. Now of course in any relationship someone can simply walk out the front door but within TPE consensual slavery the slave is 'unable' to leave. Anyway i said all that to ask this: save chaining the slave to the wall how is that achieved? And what if the relationship deteriorates? What is the slave to do if they are being neglected if they are in the 'unable to leave' situationa. Also, is it not freaking scary knowing you cant leave? As much as i yearn to be Owned i take comfort in the knowledge that should Andrew turn into a jerk i can leave him. Although i do freely admit that perghps my submission is simply not 'there' yet. i am sure that once i submit enough i will see it in a different light. NOT SEEKING MEN ONLY SEEKING WOMEN http://onmyknees.sensualwriter.com/ "When you want it, it always goes away. When you need it it never seems to stay" ~ The Speed of Pain, Marilyn Manson 2 Jan 09, 2:50 AM Master_Odin US(KS), 3 yrs Andrews_cumbucket wrote: unable to leave? So i have been thinking and am curious about something. Now i know that a large part of IE and TPE is that the slave is unable to leave. Now of course in many relationships there is the standard "i cant live without you i will never leave you" rigamarole but it things dont work a partner can exit the relationship, via whatever means works for them. Now of course in any relationship someone can simply walk out the front door but within TPE consensual slavery the slave is 'unable' to leave. Anyway i said all that to ask this: save chaining the slave to the wall how is that achieved? And what if the relationship deteriorates? What is the slave to do if they are being neglected if they are in the 'unable to leave' situationa. Also, is it not freaking scary knowing you cant leave? As much as i yearn to be Owned i take comfort in the knowledge that should Andrew turn into a jerk i can leave him. Although i do freely admit that perghps my submission is simply not 'there' yet. i am sure that once i submit enough i will see it in a different light. I don't know if this will help, but I think according to the wiki, it is IE that has the inability-to-leave component. As I understand it, it isn't a physical barricade, but a mental one. Selah There is no authority, only responsibility. 2 Jan 09, 3:00 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs There are quite a few threads on this controversial topic in the archives which you may want to look for. I'm not up to searching them out right now, but perhaps someone else might be willing to do so? At any rate, you're right to be scared. It's a scary thing. How this is achieved, well, I call it like it is. I call it brainwashing. Consensual, colluding brainwashing, but it is a process of conditioning. It gets the slave to the point where they might physically pack their suitcase, but they couldn't make it out the door. Or perhaps even to think about it is unthinkable, literally ... that if they were to seriously entertain such notions, they'd become terribly nauseous or get suddenly distracted ... "look, the stove needs cleaning!" There is a point at which they can still say no, and that's when the decision needs to get made. My personal ethics required it to be a decision we both made together. Other slaves on here will tell you that their owner decided it for them; I can't comment on that process as I did not go through it. Once it's done, if the owner turns out to be a jerk, are you screwed? Yes. That's why it's so very important to choose carefully, to know that the person you're submitting your soul to is worthy of that trust. It's the most important decision you'll ever make. The good thing is that the "point of no return" doesn't come quickly. It takes months, sometimes years. It's a long slow process, and it gives plenty of time for a (hopefully) sane and non-stupid sub to figure out if their master's going to be a Bad Idea eventually. That's why we keep saying, it's OK to go slow, it's OK to take years to get there. It's OK to need months or years to decide if this is right for you. It's also OK to decide that it isn't. (This summer. I will write that book.) -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 2 Jan 09, 4:12 AM thekittenpup 4 yrs MO: yea, its psychological thats why i said the "save chaining" bit // Raven: yea i know there are some good ones in the archives, perhaps this weekend i can see how my phone does with the search option...damn i need a computer! Also, as always Your words have given me a lot to think about. Thanks for the reply NOT SEEKING MEN ONLY SEEKING WOMEN http://onmyknees.sensualwriter.com/ "When you want it, it always goes away. When you need it it never seems to stay" ~ The Speed of Pain, Marilyn Manson 2 Jan 09, 6:31 AM 119-812-164 US, 3 yrs hello, all i rarely coment on the IE board because i am not in an IE relationship as theorized by Tanos and defined by the wiki, though i am in a TPE relationship, as defined in the way i have been taught TPE. as Ravenkaldera states, i too have had trouble finding the difference between the theorized notion of IE and colluded brainwashing -- drinking the kool-aid so to speak. but it is not my experience and so i can't speak to it's intricacies. i can say that my Master has had no interest in me being a slave under the conditions of 'collusion' or delusion (that was a little nerd language joke, by the way) and from the very beginning of our relationship, it was important to Him that i remain a whole being with human resitence and and self-preservation in tact. what He has hoped to rid me of is independence, specifically. He feels considerably more priveileged to know that i won't walk away from Him as opposed to the matter that i can't walk away from Him. these were the conditions under which i was able to surrender. and while in some ways we model a D/s continuum more than some of the traditional domestic M/s relationships modeled here under IE, it is how i have experienced TPE. i can say also that the notion of TPE when you don't choose the right Master can be disastrous, and so i can only assume that in IE, even moreso. as Raven points out, you get yourself in a situation where you may not only cease to thrive, but within which you might whither. i shudder to think but also respect greatly and admire those slaves who can surrender to this extent. in someways there is such a purity in the concept of IE that it seems central to the notion of slavery for me. but i can still only imagine the state. and probably only will, as i am asked to meditate regularly and often on 'my choices' and 'my privilege' to serve my Master. He prefers to leave my cage door open so to speak, regularly, so that i might leave if i choose, but i never choose. i do not (yet?) feel that i *cannot* choose. but then again, maybe this is also a form of IE. i hope this helped to further the discussion of the OP. smiles, girl The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.-- Alfred Lord Tennyson To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong. --Joseph Chilton Pearce 2 Jan 09, 3:10 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs 119-812-164 wrote: hello, all i rarely coment on the IE board because i am not in an IE relationship as theorized by Tanos and defined by the wiki, though i am in a TPE relationship, as defined in the way i have been taught TPE. as Ravenkaldera states, i too have had trouble finding the difference between the theorized notion of IE and colluded brainwashing -- drinking the kool-aid so to speak. but it is not my experience and so i can't speak to it's intricacies. i can say that my Master has had no interest in me being a slave under the conditions of 'collusion' or delusion (that was a little nerd language joke, by the way) and from the very beginning of our relationship, it was important to Him that i remain a whole being with human resitence and and self-preservation in tact. what He has hoped to rid me of is independence, specifically. He feels considerably more priveileged to know that i won't walk away from Him as opposed to the matter that i can't walk away from Him. these were the conditions under which i was able to surrender. and while in some ways we model a D/s continuum more than some of the traditional domestic M/s relationships modeled here under IE, it is how i have experienced TPE. i can say also that the notion of TPE when you don't choose the right Master can be disastrous, and so i can only assume that in IE, even moreso. as Raven points out, you get yourself in a situation where you may not only cease to thrive, but within which you might whither. i shudder to think but also respect greatly and admire those slaves who can surrender to this extent. in someways there is such a purity in the concept of IE that it seems central to the notion of slavery for me. but i can still only imagine the state. and probably only will, as i am asked to meditate regularly and often on 'my choices' and 'my privilege' to serve my Master. He prefers to leave my cage door open so to speak, regularly, so that i might leave if i choose, but i never choose. i do not (yet?) feel that i *cannot* choose. but then again, maybe this is also a form of IE. i hope this helped to further the discussion of the OP. smiles, girl Hello girl, I'm interested in your description of what your Master seeks to encourage in you. When you say he hopes to rid you of independence specifically, does that not put in place its opposite - dependence on him? I may be wrong, and perhaps no one else experiences it this way, but I see that as part of the internal enslavement process. Whilst there may be much reinforcing by the D/O/M of the slave's position, which might give the s the mindset of a slave and thus make them incapable of leaving, if the D/O/M/ removes an s's ability for independent action, the s is likewise incapable of leaving, and therefore enslaved as I see it. Raven mentions a point at which the s finds they cannot disobey. I would see the successful removal of independence (the s's ability for independent decisions and actions) as signalling that point, and thus signifying the transition to enslavement. 2 Jan 09, 3:41 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Perhaps it's also good to bear in mind that one only needs to read here a little to be reminded that those actively in IE do not tend to lose their brains or intellect or instinct for self-preservation for that matter. There is always the point at which IE lapses thro either simple lack of tending all the way to gross negligence which causes loss of trust and for which the responsible and intelligent D/O/M has made provision. Many of us have orders and know precisely what we are to do should our M's lose it! And IE doesn't appear to inhibit the ability to carry out whatever needs to be done in those circumstances either from the discussions I've read in the past. It's true that giving this level of control, or having it taken, is scary... even when you're with someone you know is trustworthy. But it seems a perennial misunderstanding to assume that enslavement means the slave is somehow reduced, diminished, made less than fully-functioning. All the evidence I see tells me that's nonsense... simply not true. IE rightly applied, by an honourable and responsible person, rather enhances, fulfills and encourages a rounded, complete slave. anjuli *** “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” Anais Nin *** 2 Jan 09, 4:40 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs anjuli wrote: Perhaps it's also good to bear in mind that one only needs to read here a little to be reminded that those actively in IE do not tend to lose their brains or intellect or instinct for self-preservation for that matter. There is always the point at which IE lapses thro either simple lack of tending all the way to gross negligence which causes loss of trust and for which the responsible and intelligent D/O/M has made provision. Many of us have orders and know precisely what we are to do should our M's lose it! And IE doesn't appear to inhibit the ability to carry out whatever needs to be done in those circumstances either from the discussions I've read in the past. It's true that giving this level of control, or having it taken, is scary... even when you're with someone you know is trustworthy. But it seems a perennial misunderstanding to assume that enslavement means the slave is somehow reduced, diminished, made less than fully-functioning. All the evidence I see tells me that's nonsense... simply not true. IE rightly applied, by an honourable and responsible person, rather enhances, fulfills and encourages a rounded, complete slave. anjuli Yes indeed anjuli, it doesn't remove the slave's ability to preserve their safety in an emergency for instance or take other appropriate action. I suppose in theory a D/O/M could incapacitate a slave to that extent but what would be the point? When I talked of removing independence, I meant the slave's independence to determine their own life course, rather than their ability to take appropriate action - always bearing in mind that such choices and actions as they may find themselves required to make 'independently' will be in line with what the D/O/M would wish (it would be unthinkable otherwise). This excludes instinctual actions, like the fight or flight response. 2 Jan 09, 8:55 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs You'll probably find these threads helpful, OP: "The end of IE cannot be instigated by the slave" http://www.seekdiscipline.com/boards/ie_theory/1... This is the momma of all "can't leave" discussion posts: http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/113417/0 Have you ever asked for release and been denied? http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/113417/0 "A Master's responsibility to a released slave #2" has some interesting discussion in the last 2 or 3 pages about what might happen when enslavement does break down but the owner wishes to rebuild/continue it. http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/178007/0 Also, if you read through the Enslavement.org.uk site, I think you'll find it illuminating. "Internal Enslavement is a radical answer to the question "Just how binding and complete can consensual slavery really be?" Andrews_cumbucket wrote: within TPE consensual slavery the slave is 'unable' to leave. Anyway i said all that to ask this: save chaining the slave to the wall how is that achieved? It's achieved by getting inside the slave's head and changing the way s/he sees the world so that s/he can literally not imagine herself as being anything else than the owner's property; to create a reality where the owner's authority is complete and rightful and as it should be. what if the relationship deteriorates? Depending on the degree and type of deterioration, the slave could be stuck suffering. Eventually, though, if IE is not being maintained, it will break down and this gradually releases the slave to begin making choices about their life. What is the slave to do if they are being neglected if they are in the 'unable to leave' situation. Assuming, of course, that your hypothetical slave has brought the problem up to the owner and the owner has chosen not to address it in any way ... then the slave is screwed. Unless and until the neglect becomes enough for the enslavement to begin breaking down. is it not freaking scary knowing you cant leave? Yes, it is. Actually most of the time this, for me, forms a vital part of the intoxicating and surreal funhouse ride that is living as a slave. It's vulnerability, and vulnerability lights my fuse. Other times, it just makes things sad and hard until they get worked through. (Like many factors in less extreme relationships do, for those relationships.) As much as i yearn to be Owned i take comfort in the knowledge that should Andrew turn into a jerk i can leave him. I'm using the wiki definition of owned here and not meaning to trample on whatever your personal definition of "owned" in your relationship is. With that said: you cannot be owned, literally, as we discuss ownership on these boards, and continue to hold on to your safety rope of "if he turns into a jerk I can leave him". Being owned requires letting go of that safety rope and watching it whip away out of your grasp, probably forever. That's the nature of being enslaved. i am sure that once i submit enough i will see it in a different light. Well, maybe, and then again maybe once you submit more you'll realize that for you and Andrew limited submission with a safety rope is exactly right for you and being a slave would be a bad idea. Slavery isn't some certificate of merit every submissive needs to earn. It's a relationship type that some people are suited for, but most aren't. Also, I don't think you can get closer to slavery by submitting more. Maybe more real-life experience in a live-in D/s relationship will give you more insight into how it would work, but slavery doesn't happen by the slave submitting enough; it happens by the dominant taking control and authority. Krista The majority here come here because it is a place to exchange ideas, not to release fluids. Edited 2 Jan 09, 9:07 PM by little_linnet 3 Jan 09, 2:36 AM thekittenpup 4 yrs Krista - thank you so much for the time you put into that post! Yes, everything i mentioned was hypothetical. my relationship with Andrew is just too new for us to have gotten to any kind of TPE yet. And yes, i agree that once i get more RL live-in experience i am sure my views will change. Also: thank you so much for the links! That was on my to-do list for this weekend LOL searching the archives on my trusty LG Rumor NOT SEEKING MEN ONLY SEEKING WOMEN http://onmyknees.sensualwriter.com/ "When you want it, it always goes away. When you need it it never seems to stay" ~ The Speed of Pain, Marilyn Manson 3 Jan 09, 3:26 PM kitty_miaow 3 yrs The best way to prevent a slave from leaving is to make the slave want to stay... the best way to get respect from a slave is make the slave want to respect you... if a master/mistress HAS to use chains to get the slave to do what they want they are probably doing something fundamentally wrong Next page