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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Fondly and Firmly" Fondly and Firmly (7) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Sat 13 Dec 08, 3:43 PM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs As I was following links around the wasteland of the internet, I happened upon this: http://fondlyandfirmly.com/ I also want to suggest this one too: http://lovingdd.blogspot.com/ Charming little sites...with some evident insight... It is vaguely akin to Domestic Discipline... Anyone want to have a look and comment? I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** Edited Sat 13 Dec 08, 4:15 PM by Remoses 13 Dec 08, 6:07 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs I'm not familiar with Fondly and Firmly but I am with lovingdd.blogspot. I agree it's an intelligent site with some insight into the D/s dynamic. My problem with it is that it assumes that the essence of femininity equates to submission. So whilst the site makes clear that it only discusses consensual relationships, it does seem to have a philosophy whereby all women are 'naturally' submissive to men if only they would develop this within themselves. I can't agree with that position, obviously. Also there's an 'Advanced' DD section which I haven't seen as I haven't bought the book that would give me access to that part of the site. From the extract of the book I've read online however and from various comments on the main part of the site, 'advanced dd' seems to me to parallel quite closely what others might call BDSM activities. I kind of believe in calling a thing what it is, rather than making an artificial distinction which suggests you want to disassociate from BDSM whilst simultaneously employing its techniques. That's my opinion anyway! 13 Dec 08, 7:14 PM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs I'd agree with much of what you wrote. In fact, I think that much of Domestic Discipline or Taken in Hand is D/s or M/s for vanilla types who don't want to be associated with the black leather and spikes type of our kinky life. y'know what I mean? I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** 13 Dec 08, 8:15 PM MacCain 4 yrs I've seen the sites previously and while I'm sure their adherents find them useful, and know that some here are involved with those techniques as well, I have a few issues with the information on those sites. TiH, DD, and FaF all approach the subject strictly from gender role based hypothesis. Religion is often used to support this "natural order", and FaF goes on at some length about the demon caffeine, which I suppose makes it appealing to their niche market. SD however isn't all black leather and metal studs. There are many different angles which SD approaches the issues, all centering around the practical psychology of IE, which is why I enjoy it. The above mentioned groups don't get into enough of the details on the practical side, at least in my opinion. I hate to reduce the information on those sites to "spank your wife... she'll like it!", but that does seem to be the crux of the information. I'd think that the frequency of Algolagnia cases would explain the fondness of many towards spanking and ilk. Maybe I'm too picky, I just want more than leather or spanking club with gender bias in a theory. Regards, MacCain Here's to the man, and only he, can work his horse by the rule of three; by the crack of his whip or the wave of his hand he can make them go or make them stand. 13 Dec 08, 9:16 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs MacCain wrote: I hate to reduce the information on those sites to "spank your wife... she'll like it!", but that does seem to be the crux of the information. LOL I'm going to be laughing all evening at this. I agree about the lack of theory and discussion of psychological process on the Taken in Hand site, certainly. That's just one reason why I found it so frustrating (I intend to post further on the TiH thread at some point). Lovingdd does go into disciplinary techniques, heavily spanking based, on his main site (the 'advanced' part of the site may contain different techniques) but as you say, the underlying 'theory' is based on a stereotypical view of traditional gender roles rather than human psychology. Unfortunately religion is often used to validate this (this doesn't occur so much on the Taken in Hand site). It's interesting that you've raised the possibility of Algolagnia cases with a gender bias tacked on. It does seem extraordinary to me when people stick to a narrow gender biased view of D/s, avoiding the vast weight of evidence of other kinds of D/s relationships, or seem content with no exploration of the psychological aspects of dominance and submission and no notion of any psychological development in this regard. 13 Dec 08, 9:19 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs I had to Google "Algolagnia". Yeah, I agree with MacCain. Anyone who takes the most cursory look at the SD! boards will be able to see that it's about far more than wild kinky jungle sex (in fact there's a definite lack of sex parties and whips'n'chains here). I find the insistence of many DD sites that "D/s is about the kinky promiscuous sex!" to be disingenuous. It demonstrably is not, although it *can* be, and the impression I get from this kind of semantic linedrawing is that these are people who are real scared of the Kinky Other and want to distance themselves from the "abnormal" without bothering to investigate it. The groups that *do* try to explore theory beyond "the girl types like being spanked!" do it in a far less cogent way than Tanos has managed on the Enslavement site, and we manage to do here. They seem to center around propping up preconceived gender role beliefs more than anything else, which as everyone knows is the wrong way to go about developing a theory. And working with this faulty methodology they often come to horrifying conclusions -- witness the essays on Taken In Hand about rape, for example, or the assertions made about domestic violence in so many DD groups. I often wonder if the reason the LA LA LA WE'RE NOT KINKY WE'RE NOT WE'RE NOT brigade avoids BDSM and D/s resources -- reinventing the wheel as a result, and doing it poorly -- is because most BDSM resources are pansexual and this offends the sensibilities of people who are wedded to gender-role ideology. Krista You oppress me with your lack of interest in my exhibitionism and various fetishes! 13 Dec 08, 10:31 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs little_linnet wrote: I often wonder if the reason the LA LA LA WE'RE NOT KINKY WE'RE NOT WE'RE NOT brigade avoids BDSM and D/s resources -- reinventing the wheel as a result, and doing it poorly -- is because most BDSM resources are pansexual and this offends the sensibilities of people who are wedded to gender-role ideology. Yes, I wonder the same thing. 13 Jan 09, 5:36 AM 119-812-164 US, 3 yrs x_Ancilla_x wrote: little_linnet wrote: I often wonder if the reason the LA LA LA WE'RE NOT KINKY WE'RE NOT WE'RE NOT brigade avoids BDSM and D/s resources -- reinventing the wheel as a result, and doing it poorly -- is because most BDSM resources are pansexual and this offends the sensibilities of people who are wedded to gender-role ideology. Yes, I wonder the same thing. i've often thought that it's because BDSM is itself a reinvention of the wheel, channeling and synthesizing the foundational animal and the evolving intellect while consciously not centering and privileging marriage and/or a capital-g G*d, accounting also for the matter of gender, sexual persuasion, and marriage being centered to begin with. the pansexual nature of BDSM as it intersects with D/s creates a dyanamic, too, that essentially mainstreams, equalizes, and normalizes non-hetero sex -- or it might be more accurate to say the opposite, from the fundamentalists perspective -- that hetero sex is corrupted, disrupted, and made abject by 'deviance' that started in the non-hetero community. makes me shiver a little and think of hairspray, leisure suits, and 1-800 numbers on late night t.v. chuckling, grl The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.-- Alfred Lord Tennyson To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong. --Joseph Chilton Pearce