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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "The process of normalization" 1 2 3 The process of normalization (26) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Thu 4 Dec 08, 5:03 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs This might turn out to be a novel, please don't scream and run. Yesterday we had an interesting debate on the Swedish weekly M/s-chat. I can't remember quite what the topic was, but I realized a few things are so very different in the way my Owner applies IE, that I thought I'd bring it to SD as well. There's been a discussion about IE and methods of IE, and among those came the topic of rules. I've always thought that what my Owner does is, well, normal, but it seems now that it isn't. He never sits me down and gives me a New Rule, there isn't rules for the sake of having a rule or to ritualize submission (such as kissing feet, sitting on the floor, etc.) and no rule is written down or nailed to the wall. Instead what my Owner does is build these "rules" into how we function. It is more or less impossible for me to break a rule, because it would be breaking how the relationship works. I can't even think of a rule. I can think of loads of his preferances, though, and these preferances just... well, are. They are real and they're what I'm supposed to align to. They're all logical and basic, and don't feel like control of any kind. They're never presented as absolute, but rather: "I like my tea with two sugars" - simple. Easy. Rational. They're almost... the same way I'd have respect for a vanilla partner who doesn't eat meat, or a vanilla partners perferances. Except for the fact that I can't imagine neglecting or ignoring the preferances. Another side of the IE-discussion is the fact that I am utterly unaware of several things: I don't know what my Owner is doing (most of the time I think he's not doing anything M/s-y what so ever), I didn't know I have several different mindsets untill he pointed it out and I didn't know I use language differently with slaves vs. dominants, or even the way I seem to others or how I'm changing. Because of all of this, I sincerely believe more or less all relationships work the way ours (i.e. us here on the forum) does. I mean, it's perfectly normal and unquestionable that if he asked me to go outside in the snow naked, I would. Everyone does that, right? It's not untill recently when I've been confronted with other non-M/s couples, that I realize it's not common. I see how they struggle to maintain an Elitarian balance. If it wasn't for the fact that I say Master to him and hang out a bunch here on SD, I'd think we were absolutely vanilla, with a bit of a spicy sexlife. It so... normal, all of this. Have you noticed this normalization process in your relationship, and if so, what shape does it take? And, do you/your slave notice what the Owner is doing, mentally and emotionally, and how you're changing? As a slave, could you point out which methods or tools your Owner uses? 4 Dec 08, 6:38 PM property_of_MacCain 4 yrs i don't have a rule book so to speak either. For me it is like you described, i know MacCain's preferences. my base knowledge of how to please Him efficiently grows daily. So yes, it is a very slow gradual change. So slow, in fact, that i don't see it happening. It isn't until i get upset, because i think somehow everything stopped when i wasn't looking, that MacCain locks me in the bathroom with Him and tells me what HAS been happening. He explains where W/we were the last time i had a freak out, and how much further W/we've come. He explains things He tried that worked, what He tried that didn't work the way He had planned, and usually the conversation ends with Him placing His hand on the collar i wear. At that point i fall to my knees with out even thinking, and He smiles, because He has made His point. i don't really have a "normal" point of reference. i don't leave the house unless its to grocery shop, or for some other "household need". i don't shop for pleasure, or go to coffee with the girls... or any of that sort of thing. i rarely see family, and even more rarely see my old friends. i come here to keep grounded, this is my only outlet. So this is my normal. p Please Do Not Feed The Trolls. It's the best way to get our board back on track. 4 Dec 08, 6:55 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs property_of_MacCain wrote: i don't really have a "normal" point of reference. i don't leave the house unless its to grocery shop, or for some other "household need". i don't shop for pleasure, or go to coffee with the girls... or any of that sort of thing. i rarely see family, and even more rarely see my old friends. i come here to keep grounded, this is my only outlet. So this is my normal. I'm all with you. I don't realize really that anything has been happening, untill he points out things to me. He'll stop me and ask "Two months ago, would you've done it?" or something like that. The piece I quoted above is so striking to me, because I'm just the same. Unless I need to shop, see my therapist or go to my pilates, I'm at home, with him. I have no IRL-friends anymore, so when I'm met with these expectations on what "normal" is and when I see other couples interact, I feel my mind rearing. It's really grinding to a halt, and I find myself thinking "Do people acutally *do* this stuff? I thought it was only in the movies!" This episode stands out to me: I recently visited my school, which I do twice a year, and while there I was talking to other girls my age - I'm 20. One of them has never cooked and never cut a potato, the other one kept speaking about a party at a very famous club she's going to because she knows the owner of the club. Then the conversation turned to boys, as it tends to do (at which point I was wondering if some dear, faithful god couldn't just kill me fast instead), where they debated how important a mans clothing, car and education is. Not to mention that you should choose your man depending on wether or not he gives you presents and if his mother smells good or not. I didn't know these people actually exsisted! It's like they were from a different planet, all though I suppose I'm just down-to-earth and poor. Another couple I met very briefly had this very loving air about them, and everything was going to be fair and equal, respectful and polite. There was this ... feeling, sensation to them, that this was a normal relationship. And I began remembering back when I had friends, what their relationships looked like, and how couples living together act in eglitarian relationships. That's when it hit me how far we've gotten, how deep into this I am now. Because I can't even imagine living like that, all equal - it's so wierd and alien. Like watching a completely different culture, I'm all fascinated and stuff. I feel I should be carrying a notebook to note down the interesting behaviours: "10AM: Sandra comes home with the groceries, which Patrick then unpacks. They meet at the door and exchange cheek-pecks and polite greetings. 10.30AM: Patrick carries down the laundry to the laundry room and sets the washer; Sandra has promised to get it up in an hour. She is now cooking, looks like curry. Patrick will do the dishes today, it's Thursday." Somehow I don't think that'd be very appriciated, though... 4 Dec 08, 7:23 PM property_of_MacCain 4 yrs i never really aspired for "normal" anyway. Heck, my dad was a biker and my mom was professional "wanna be rock star"... lol... i'm not sure i ever knew what normal was! Then i stop to think of my kids...whoa... they are going to need some therapy later on! "Well Dr. Fixmybrain, Grandma sang in bars... Grandpa was a biker... mom is a slave, and i was raised by her and her Master... do you think there is hope for me?" Goodness, if they rebel, they'll be accountants! p Please Do Not Feed The Trolls. It's the best way to get our board back on track. 4 Dec 08, 10:30 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs p, my sister always said that the only way I'm leaving my kids to rebel is to become Alex P Keatons I agree with you, SixThreeFive, both on the "this is what normal IS" of our relationship and on the inability to grasp, in my gut, how anyone would want a relationship that's different. Any time someone in my circle of vanilla friends has trouble in her relationship I have to really struggle with myself not to relexively offer advice that would apply to my relationship but not hers. I mean, obviously I'm not going to counsel a vanilla woman to gather up her humility and kneel before her husband, or ask for punishment, but apparently in some perfectly well-functioning relationships it would be inappropriate or unhelpful for one person to strip themselves metaphorically bare and lay everything at their partner's feet in the way that I do when I'm troubled. And for some time I've realized that apparently other people are perfectly happy to have relationships where they can't utterly and completely depend on their partner, so advice offered from a perspective where I *do* isn't necessarily going to be applicable. People are weird, and the most amusing thing I see in that statement is that of course it's not me with my kinky, decidedly non-mainstream relationship I'm thinking of when I make it Krista It's like trying to correct the math of somebody adding two and three when they're working under the notion that two means six and three means paprika. 5 Dec 08, 3:09 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Yep, I'm with you too. At the outset I was spending an inordinate amount of time worrying about what we 'should' be doing to enforce our dynamic... wanting to display it... wanting overt demonstrations of his control. Now I won't say that the 'freak outs' don't still occur from time to time. I had one recently and funnily enough we talk in the bathroom often too! J's always complaining I make him wet when I cry on him in the bath! <grins> It's just a place we talk things thro, relaxing and touching, and I cannot begin to tell you how much I love it. So I freak - it's all gone, we're not doing ANYTHING M/s, I don't feel like a slave, I don't submit... blah blah blubber, blah... and later in the bath he spells out everything I do, everything he does, how weird that would be to others... all that stuff. And he's right. My family know he's the boss. My sister thinks I'm 'tolerant' <laughs> because of an incident when I bought something he hated (okay it was a china chicken which was very cute <giggles> shut up already) and it went back, immediately and with nothing more than a little play-whining and joshing from me and the family who were all present. (And yes, he let me choose something else from the shop to replace it.) But sis saw it as something that would have caused a row in most relationships. She mentioned it recently (or perhaps it was me ('Oh no not another chicken!' is a regular joke now. He's often threatened with gift chickens in friendly fun) and she said how 'tolerant' I am. I said not really. He didn't like it so that's the end of it. She eyed me and said that it wasn't like that in most relationships and I laughed and reminded her what would have happened had it been my ex... and then added that it was nice to have someone I couldn't push around. I hadn't realised how that sounded to her but clearly it was a touch weird altho she accepted it okay. Nothing feels freaky that's for sure in J's household. A bit of kinky stuff, sure. Lots of unnoticed, by me, M/s stuff, but it's largely low key and certainly inoffensive. It's all a bit twisted really isn't it? We're the extreme end, the oh-so-close to dangerous, non-consensual fringe and all we're doing is building lives where each of us is happy in our roles, fulfilled, safe and cared for... so very close and intimate with our life partners, with trust, peace and harmony reigning (freak outs excepted). It's so normal to live together and retain separate lives, secrets, areas of lack of trust, rows and resentments, and lack of respect. Krista is right. Just who is weird here? anjuli ps. The first one to mention the chicken gets it! You hear? <looks fierce and probably slightly silly> ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 5 Dec 08, 3:45 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs anjuli wrote: It's all a bit twisted really isn't it? We're the extreme end, the oh-so-close to dangerous, non-consensual fringe and all we're doing is building lives where each of us is happy in our roles, fulfilled, safe and cared for... so very close and intimate with our life partners, with trust, peace and harmony reigning (freak outs excepted). It's so normal to live together and retain separate lives, secrets, areas of lack of trust, rows and resentments, and lack of respect. Krista is right. Just who is weird here? anjuli I'm totally with you. We're having this loong, IE-debate on a Swedish kinky-forum now, and all I hear is how freaking dangerous all of this is and "OMG!!1 What if he makes you..." But seriously. I think we're the sane ones. We create an intimate relationship, where we actually do all of those things that the phsychologists would like us to do: share our intimate emotions and thoughts, work through trust-issues and "bond". Yeah, we might take it a bit further than they'd recomend (because, oddly enough there's this "Let's be happy and intimate and share stuff - but not TOO much, because, that'd be like... dependence!" thing in relationship psychology). I don't get it, why doesn't everyone want to live like us? It feels to me like they're ruled by the fear of "disappearing" into someone else or "What if there's a break-up? He can't know everything about me, it might END at some point!" I'm disregarding the power exchange here, because I know not everyone is suited for it, all though I have difficulties understanding how someone couldn't be. What we do is so... safe. Above all, it's so safe, loving and caring, I'm not sure what it is to fear? So, a lot of things could go wrong if you have the wrong dominant - a lot of things can go wrong if you have the wrong boyfriend as well. Take that from me, I had one that got really turned on when I self-injured out of misery. I've had (and will have) my freak-outs. Usually they're about that there's nothing M/s-y happening, but sometimes they're about how much M/s-y stuff was happening when I thought it wasn't. I get all cuddly though; I'm really rather frightened of how much I changed when I wasn't looking, and at the same time I'm so bloody happy I don't know what to do with myself and I'm not sure it's okay to be happy and not frightened. We also tend to talk in the bathroom, all though we're usually in the showerstall. It's one of the reasons why the renovation is so difficult for us, I think. Not just that we don't have a shower at home, but also that a routine of safety and a communication-outlet has disappeared. It's where I voice my fears and insecurities, where I dare bring up things that are hard, where I can kneel and lay my troubles before him - or where I can blubber about this new thing that's exciting me so much. *scratches head* Yeah. I dunno. I think this mental process, where what we do becomes the normal, safe and sane thing to do, is extremely important. I don't know how long I could've continued IE if I didn't think so or have begun to think so at some point. I don't think IE would've worked. Oh, and anjuli: There'll be no chickens for Christmas, I hope? (You're cute when you try look fierce.) 5 Dec 08, 4:03 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs A small note: There is no excuse for china chickens Anjuli. YKINOK Please Do Not Feed The Trolls. It's the best way to get our board back on track. 5 Dec 08, 4:11 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I knew it! <laughs and rolls her eyes> It was cute! I can't have real ones! <coughs and hides the next bit from J> Yet. It was a substitute and was for the kitchen windowsill. Eh! What is it about bathrooms tho? anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 5 Dec 08, 4:17 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs I wonder about the bathrooms too... is it because we (society) tends to hide what's done in there and since we (M/s-couples) work so much on taking away privacy, that this place where one should have privacy, becomes the place where we choose to share our intimate emotions, through some sort of symbolism? 5 Dec 08, 4:47 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Mmm... yes I think that's part way there, 635. I get a cocoon like feeling when we bathe together. I guess it's warm and nice and sort of indulgent but shared rather than solitary as it would 'normally' have been in the past. And there's the intimacy and closeness and reassurance of touch I guess. But if it's linked to a loss of privacy or a denial of one why would we become comfortable and then reverse on it somehow to find it the most comforting place? Funny. I must ask J. Another wonder he has wrought I suspect. To associate it with positive experiences when I was so damn uncomfortable with the loss of privacy at first. <grins> anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Next page