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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "When the poly family breaks - regaining confidence" 1 2 When the poly family breaks - regaining confidence (15) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. Sat 22 Nov 08, 12:47 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Hi all,this is my first post and I am a regular from another forum when poly and M/s are very much a minority and often misunderstood. There I am frequently singing the praises of poly and how it can and does work for us, feeling proud of my fantastic little family, and trying to be supportive to others.. and now all of a sudden I am wobbling.. it's so nice to see a serious poly forum somewhere and I am feeling really glad I may be able to discuss this here and at least be taken seriously. I have been poly actively for years, since teenage, though never live in with more than one partner. My longest term live in relationship changed and we moved separately about 6 years ago, though our family commitment remained unchanged and involved as we coparent (so we like to say we have a 14 year still successful relationship, we're just not partners). For the last six years or so I have been in a position where it is not possible, for a variety of reasons I can't change)to live with any of my partners. I have a fairly complicated and difficult life in some ways. After a minimum of twelve months relationship each under my belt with three partners, I began to involve them more in my home life at the start of this year. It was a big thing to do, as I have three children. I finally began to feel settled again and like I had a family again. We began at the beginning of the year having sundays together as a family, everyone who could come, and this was such a wonderful feeling. We had pictures taken of us all. I was proud of the family I had built and felt like the luckiest person on the planet. Everyone became involved in everyone else's lives and this was new and wonderful for me. I felt like i had reached a peak of success in my lifestyle. I suddenly realised this is where I would like to settle and began to feel as if this is how I would like to continue always. Each of these partners, as far as I was concerned, I would like to keep forever. I'd probably like to live with them all but we are not in a position to do this. For the first time in a long time, my confidence has been terribly knocked about being poly. I love people, I can't help it, it's how I am. But now two of the people from my circle are gone. One of them (a few months ago) appears to have returned to their previous owner after two years in relationship to me,under non negotiated circumstances. Which has left me upset and confused (and feeling rather betrayed and taken advantage of to be honest). The other, who has been 18 months with me, a couple of days ago decided they feel they need to end their relationship with me because they fear our happy loving relationship is standing in the way of him ever starting his own family with someone as a primary. I love him and I would never stand in the way of his best life and have moved aside willingly. We're both gutted and neither of us want this to be necessary. Finding another meaningful partner has been impossible for him so far, as soon as it starts to get more serious he is dumped because of me, despite my doing everything to support and welcome new partners, most people can't handle poly. My slave lucy remains. So does my masochist partner D, who is less involved with the family but still a bit, has been partnered with me for 2.5 years of a 3.5 year relationship. I also have a new playmate who is adorable. But in some senses I feel like everyone is dumping me. I am feeling my poly nature being threatened like never before. What am I... some person to use for love gathering til something better comes along? For the first time in many years I am feeling sadness about being who I am, like being polyamorous is some kind of burden.. surely it's easier to just love one.. nobody could put me in the position of double hurt like this... and it hurts everyone in the circle not just me.. lucy has lost a lot too, and even D a little has been lost. And the hurt we experience makes our relationships more difficult in this transitional phase. It seems true poly people are so so rare. I feel so sad and worry about how easy its going to be to trust people in future. On days like today I wish I weren't polyamorous. But I am. It's not a dream or a decision, just something I am. How long and... what has to happen before we know someone really CAN do it, someone really IS committed to it and all it means? Is this where living together comes in - does loving someone from this position just mean setting myself up for risk? At least it is a bigger commitment when people live together.. it's just not possible for me, so also I feel very angry about my circumstances right now too. It would be wonderful to hear any useful thoughts from those with more experience than me in these matters. De Edited Sat 22 Nov 08, 12:51 PM by Degenerate 22 Nov 08, 12:57 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Hi Degenerate, Welcome to the board. As well as your own question you may find the search facility useful http://www.seekdiscipline.com/search/searchtype=... There have been many threads discussing similar issues and they may be helpful to you. Tiara *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 22 Nov 08, 4:23 PM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs Poly is more difficult. It's also the only way to go for some of us. I can't imagine being monogamous. Who would I give up? Screw that. It's like saying to a parent, "Pick the kid you like best - you don't need the others." On the other hand, the single biggest reason I have been dumped by secondary partners is "I've just fallen in love with a new primary who is monogamous, and they say that I have to dump all my other lovers, and I'm in love so I have to do it!" (Often accompanied by "This is my last chance to be Normal!" or some such bullshit.) Except that I would never, never in a million years do that to someone else. To my mind, if someone is the right person, they would not ask me to do that. If there were the right person for me, they would share my values around relationship, they would understand the importance of my other lovers, they would want me to be happy. They would be poly, and mean that. Anyone for whom I would have to compromise my life, my self, and my soul in that way ... they would not be right for me. They would be a trap of self-sacrifice that I would eventually regret. It would be like being queer and marrying straight. We all know how well that works out. And that's what I have to say to your lover who is leaving you because he can't find a primary. Duh, he shouldn't be dating monogamous people. He should only be advertising for poly people, up front, exclusively. There are a whole lot more of us around than people think, and our numbers are growing all the time. If I sound sharp about that, it's just that I've been down that road too many times. To be poly is to commit to certain values - being willing to stretch, to strive for trust, to communicate in the face of pain, to be brutally honest and learn to love that, to put the long-term above the short-term, to have faith in love. To place the happiness of yourself and your loved ones above society's rules. One either needs to commit fully to those, or give up and be monogamous and don't inflict one's self on the poly people that one will eventually trash. I'm not saying it's easy. Or quick. But it is possible. I've put together something of a poly family, partly D/s and partly vanilla. We are still together - my non-D/s wife after 16 years, my boy after 7, and my secondary sub after 9. (She doesn't live with me - she lives with her owner, her parents, and two kids, down the block from her wife.) And two friendly male play partners after 4. (Who live with their various numbers of partners.) But it takes time, and I can tell you right now that the stresses of poly are easily thrown off by the stresses of a life that is extremely chaotic and unstable in and of itself. If you want to be the center of a poly household - and that's a very seductive thought for a lot of us - you yourself have to be stable, to be the unmoving and welcoming center of the web. If your home life is chaotic and unstable, that will ripple out and affect everything. Unfortunately. This I have learned from experience. The other issue is that poly communication really does require a certain amount of face time, and multiple-partner face time. LDRs are really not conducive in the long term. You say that due to unusual circumstances (and three kids) you can't have your lovers live with you. OK. Start thinking and planning for the long term, for the poly family that you want to have. What things would have to change (or be waited out) in order for this to eventually be a possibility? (You don't have to discuss this here, just think about it.) How can you tilt your life to make this more possible? You have to build the life that will support the poly, not expect the poly to support your chaos. I know that it hurts when one's lovers leave, even when you have more than people. Monogamous people don't often understand that. "But you still have two other lovers! It shouldn't matter so much that you lost one!" My secondary sub puts it like this: "If I have ten children, and you take one and cut it's throat, I'm still going to be heartbroken." It hurts. But you can learn from it. Either they weren't suitable, or mistakes were made that can be done differently next time. For instance, when someone leaves suddenly or makes unilateral changes out of nowhere, you can bet that there's been a long buildup of dishonesty and lack of communication. This needs to be laid down as a Dealbreaker - Will Not Tolerate at the beginning. And so forth. One good thing about D/s in poly relationships is that if you're the dom/me, and you're on your game, you can *force* the subs to be honest and process. They'll be none of this sandbagging of resentments here, guys. Nobody leaves this room until I'm satisfied we've reached an agreement. Ha! This may or may not be useful to you. But be assured that this can work, you just have to choose carefully, have your life in order, and do the work. It's possible. Really. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 22 Nov 08, 6:45 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Oh Raven thank you so much for your fantastic and thoughful message. I can relate to such a lot of what you say. yes! re the one who has gone because he cannot find a primary.. I wanted to scream at him NOBODY WHO LOVES YOU WOULD WANT YOU TO DO THAT! But I never want to pressure too much, I am always trying so hard to be impeccable. He even said in the conversation that I always put myself last in these matters - but I just see it as being unselfish and trying to be as loving as I can. After reading your message I wonder if what he wanted was to see me get up and fight for him. but when a partner is saying to me 'my best life is thattaway' my loving instincts kick in and I begin to help them pack, letting go is a loving act in this context. My loving instinct always overrides any selfsihness I am feeling and I tend to assume this is good and ethical - but now I am not sure - is this the same as putting oneself last? He did do this once before about a year ago, when someone pushed him exactly as you describe - but I knew it wouldn't work and left the door open,and sure enough he was back within 6 weeks. On this occasion he has not been pushed - this time he is jumping because he can see it coming and he's been seeing someone who could potentially be a great catch. I think he thinks he'll never even get to find out, if he is carrying me as this terrible burden. And yet I can tell he is so very sad about it as his ideal would also be to keep me. He's still coming for Sunday dinner tomorrow. I think he meet so many lovely women he is a lovely man and all he can see is how they won't tolerate it. I am not sure he could be content to do it all through advertising. He even says it's spending time with my family that has made him feel he wants his own. (which for me raises the question, why cant we twist this so you are further in with us then - but then i understand the biological desire to have ones own children too). re the D/s - that one is definitely one I agree with too - the slave - had no written contract to help him be mindful of such things and I have since resolved never to have a slave without a proper written contract again so there can be no mistake about what is expected. (he didnt want one) I think he must have been having some doubts which he had not shared as this seemed totally out of character - and I feel annoyed that I did not find a way to ensure any such doubts were being raised, to give me the opportunity to make any changes necessary. Re the long terms plans, that's a fabulous piece of advice. That's one thing I can take some control of, and I will give some thought to. Because yes if we start to engage with hindsight, I have seen a glimpse of my own best life. So maybe I can find a way to construct it. To be honest unless I get rich and become non disabled and my three kids disappear, I can't quite see it sorting itself. Only the first one is changeable so perhaps I need to work on that De Edited 22 Nov 08, 6:54 PM by Degenerate 22 Nov 08, 7:17 PM 662-935-655 5 yrs my late Master and i weren't poly due to the Church He was ordained in forbidding it - rather odd as when they first started almost 200 years ago they were founded on it - and because of His health and financial issues as well as my insecurity, immaturity, fragile, fragmented and very vulnerable self due to PTSD and past sever abuse enough to make me "legally blind" with my own mom knocking out one eye's vision with her face-slapping and my 1st ex of 3 before Master giving me a karate kick in the head while trying to protect my kids as he - the first ex - was psychotic and about to kill us all, due to a cult stressing him with combined psychosis in the family tree and substance abuse. HOWEVER, speaking as one who has done some counseling, i have made some observances about poly - it seems to be very difficult in societies that don't allow it. i've done some reading in the early poly relationships in Master's church of ordination and these were limited to the Man being in charge and to it being multiple wives; however, in that society, where it was part of T/their culture and hence had more support systems, most of the poly relationships were pretty stable. The same is true among the modern polygamous Muslim states - where Divorce is allowed and where the Quran allows limited corporal punishment of one's wives also. Also in a cultural anthropology course in college i read about a tribe that was close to being wiped out, i think in the mountains of Tibet or Thailand - something in Asia with a T, remember i'm talking some 20 years ago here so be patient with me on it - there was a polyandry based society that was also matriachal that was working well except that modern society was encroaching on T/their territory. It was a society based on complete role reversal of what O/one usually finds in primitive societies nowadays - a Woman ran the family, was the hunter/warrior and the husbands stayed home, took care of the kids, etc. It was interesting how many of the mostly much younger than this one of the women in the class wanted to take off and join them - in a supposedly mostly vanilla school, one would think. (GRIN) i hear the same crap about gay and lesbian pals - M/s, BDSM, and not - how their relationships just don't last and aren't stable. And i believe it's the same thing - because modern Western society doesn't support such relationships these are "less stable". But it is this one's opinion that these might be much more stable in a society that truly supported T/them. (Same with T/trans F/folk) And i find it's most often members of the religious right - including my late Master's church, which W/we abhorred, who shout "Family values" yet discriminate against certain families! David Letterman - yes the famous comedian made a not-totally-funny joke when my state became the first and, now, once again - at least for now - the only state to allow same sex marriage. He made a comment about how many of the same preachers who decry F/folk for not getting married and denouncing these folks - same sex families - for wanting to get married when nobody else does. (my paraphrase) i believe that if same sex couples are given the social acceptance and support that others are these families would have no greater degree of divorce/splitting than do the average heterosexual marriages in our culture - and i think the same is true for poly. By the way a couple of years back i read where some of the groups that have broken off from the main, now not-polygamous church - that Master was a Priest in, to remain polygamous and not the one with the child abuse/statuatory rape charges either - that W/we did and do denounce clearly- but just regular adults still living in polygamy for their faith, joined by others not of any faith, but just poly and had a rally in Salt Lake City UT, USA for Poly families. Kids got up and talked about growing up with many moms and how great it was, etc. They didn't use their Dad's names because they didn't want them to go to prison, but just the first names. i understand from the report i read there wasn't a dry eye in the rally - including from the opposition. Interestingly enough i read about it online but the article was from a Utah paper that is owned by the Church Master was a Priest in, mostly, and is very conservative/religious right - havng had many op-ed articles and letters against poly and same-sex unions, that covered it in a mostly fair objective way. So there actually is a movement in the U.S. politically in support of poly - no matter how small it may be, it is happening or did at least once that i know of. So that's this one's thoughts- based on theory and research and college classes rather than personal experience - but an objective, scholarly look at poly from an academic type of interest would seem to show that it can be just as stable as any other family when the social supports are in place for it. Again, this was NOT my major in college or in my counseling - i was not a family therapist, but a substance abuse counselor. (Although many family issues do and did come up there) So i am not an expert. However Master - may He rest in peace used to say that an ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure so an expert is a "has-been-drip-under-pressure" - and Him with 2 PhD degrees . He also used to say His BS degree meant, well, B.S. (Bull Sh**) and M.S. meant More of the Same and Ph D meant Piled Higher and Deeper - as well that it didn't matter if O/one came from Yale or Jail, but it was what O/one was doing with O/one's life now that matters. i think some of this was because He was a rebel without a cause and a bit anarchistic, being from the sixties and an Aquarius, but also because the 2 PhD's He had managed to get were in theoretical subjects in which He could not really earn a lot of money, so He was disappointed. Anyway for what it's worth, these are some observations i've made - some of it in case Master ever changed His mind and insisted W/we went poly, to try to prepare myself and some just out of the same prurient curiousity that many non-poly F/folk have about the subject (GRIN). And it may not be worth very much or be much comfort as it's all academic and doesn't really hold an answer to where F/folks who are poly or in any other type of household/family not quite socially acceptable can find the support to make it work. Perhaps that Kinky Counselor site some F/folks have brought up in past discussions? i don't know. But i know it makes me sad to hear how others of non-traditional families are not treated fairly - and i admit when i read the stories of the kids of those poly families at that rally, that this one did cry and i do cry when i hear of situations like the one the OP poster brought up. It's sad, but life really isn't fair, is it? j/L Papa's owned always: still proudly wearing His Collar and Ring, rest in peace Beloved Master/Husband! alias "granny" matrika ye olde crone, blessed be! 23 Nov 08, 11:25 AM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Thanks 662-935-655 for your detailed reply. I think you make a really relevant point here, that if society welcomed polyamoury it would be far easier. It would certainluy have saved me from losing the second partner mentioned in my OP, who as I say is not genuinely happy with his decision. He's definitely a victim of social pressure. now I feel angry at society (oh no change there then). De 24 Nov 08, 7:08 AM 662-935-655 5 yrs Degenerate wrote: Thanks 662-935-655 for your detailed reply. I think you make a really relevant point here, that if society welcomed polyamoury it would be far easier. It would certainluy have saved me from losing the second partner mentioned in my OP, who as I say is not genuinely happy with his decision. He's definitely a victim of social pressure. now I feel angry at society (oh no change there then). De If society accepted a LOT of things that harm none and are a blessing to all life - as in "Everyone that loves is born of G. and knows G. ..... for G.is Love" in the book so many of Them claim to follow or "All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals" to put it another way, as long as these are between consenting adults, i suspect that there would be a lot less misery - individually and as a whole in this world. It is time to stop Hate and stop being so concerned about what goes on in other P/people's bedrooms - M/s or not - and how it happens. i suspect it's usually because such-like are either raised with intolerance, as i was, which i was able to out grow through experience and education or maybe the bedroom such-like are in are so boring they have to mind everyone else's business. Interesting because in substance abuse counseling such would be labeled "codependent" with "control issues" and often "enablers" in other ways. But Y/you know it's easier to point the finger at other P/people's lives than to look at the 3 fingers pointing back at one. i do feel sorry for society sometimes - but also know that society is what it has made itself and for the things that are wrong in it that i have contributed to in the past, i have to stop, face the karma and change MYSELF not A/anyone else. Payback is a bitch - a wolf one - that bites me on the butt sometimes. (GRIN) i wish E/everyone in society would see it that way and stop the hate - or as some of us in this country are saying "stop the H8" (as in California) or as my late Master put it to me, even back when W/we had only a vanilla marriage, pre-collaring, "When will T/they learn YOU CAN NOT LEGISLATE MORALITY" It makes me angry - not at A/anyone here and yes i know i'm preaching to the choir, but also P/people i know now and P/people i used to know but am no longer in touch with - quite a few as i also worked with F/folks with HIV or at High risk for a while and sponsored some lovely lesbian/bi women in AA - none in M/s at that time - are among the ones being hurt by this peculiar nosiness and criticism of other P/people's sexuality and often religion as well. Some of them are fond of quoting a saying: including in the Church Master was a priest in, "What would Jesus do?" when it suits them and i'd love to be able to remind them that Jesus hung with Mary Magdalene, a woman - her or another - taken with adultery and tax-collectoers who cheated the people, i.e corrupt politicians and harlots, not the folks going to worship services and often making it a fashion show. So though i'm hetero-monogamous and widowed - and staying that way with my own integrity and oaths as my "keeper", it makes me angry when good folks like the OP are basically finding it extra hard to sustain T/their household because of such societal pressures. it makes me literally sick. i wish W/we were immune to this, but Master and i stopped attending one munch in a state just south of U/us after the Male owner of a f-slave and a BDSM dungeon/club said there that He didn't "encourage" gay/lesbian/bi/trans F/folk to go there and the hostess and Host did not speak up. And W/we loved that munch, but it was too much for U/us - having heard enough of this nonsense, B/both of U/us, at the Church He was ordained in regularly and thus lending morale support for F/folks that were other than hetero-monogamous-vanilla to become involved in Affirmation - a group by (or bi? GRIN) and for P/people who did not fit into that cubby-hole in the Church's definition of acceptable love and marriage, at risk of excommunication. Frankly i think that was one of the reasons Master said He was too sick to attend Church and had the Sacrament at home as early in the progression of His illness as He did, but i'll never know. i know it's part of why i am content to accept my Primary Care Provider and other doctors decision that i should not leave the house except for medical appts. and am not in a hurry to have them work out a way for me to go there. Frankly, although i am a member, i call it the Church Master was ordained in, rather than my Church, although they have been good to me since He died and i am technically a member as i'm rather ecclectic in my Kabbalah and Wicca - enough to include a CHurch that believed in Heavenly Mom as well as Pop when i joined, not knowing they were homophobic, against poly to the point of excommunicating people over what was a common practice in their history and being racist in some ways until 1978. But then i didn't KNOW all of that when i joined either. They have been good to me, esp. since He died, and i agree with 85% of what they teach - minus the stuff like that - but the truth is that with the exception of a very few F/folks,i do not really feel it is "my" Church, i've never really fit in after the new member pink-cloud phase. Could it be because i wear a pentacle and a triskelean ring? (GRIN) Many are good folks in most ways, but also some are just willfully ignorant - and that bugs me. Hmm, odd, my last post about this was almost academic, while this one is quite an emotional rant. i hope i didn't offend A/anyone that didn't need to be offended. (LMAO) But i doubt it here. And i must add that there have been 2 couples - one present and one in the past - who have been extraordinarily helpful, supportive and mostly non-judgemental. But it bothered me that even though W/we were hetero-monogamous and married in M/s Master lived in deep concern of being found out - although with me wearing the Pentacle and Tri-S ring He bought me W/we didn't make it a total secret either, although my every-day colla was low key- but it bugged me that such a good Man had to go around so concerned that P/people would realize what He was/is and What W/we were/are and even when W/we were going along with their "rules" about what should, to my mind, be a private and personal matter for U/us. Y/you may have heard the old saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" -often used to judge such O/ones as some of my F/fiends or even U/us who were quite mild and conventional as the lifestyle goes; however to remain in the Church as Master wished for me, i hold to that as per those who hypocrisy. (rather than how this saying is usually applied) And i occasionally try to educate the more open-minded F/folk i find there - on rare occasions. Besides Master's wish, that i remain a member as He believed it was necessary to keep the "eternal sealing" part of O/our marriage formalized in their "Temple" or inner-sanctum, i suspect that is why the Power/S that Be keep me there as well- and THEY/(S)HE have/has done so, quite clearly. i suppose putting up with others ignorance and intolerance is the price i have to pay - the Karma or "reaping what i've sown" for my own earlier intolerance. Maybe it's like nobody is worse on picking on smokers than a reformed smoker - maybe i myself am intolerant of intolerance. (GRIN) If so, better than being stupid, stubborn and just plain prudish as i was in my teens and young adulthood - mostly because i felt guilty for my OWN fantasies that weren't exactly what society accepted, i suspect. Part of me wants to delete this whole thing out of fear that i have said too much or may offend someone - or may get found out by said Churchianity rather than Christianity types and get booted out. Part of me feels i've revealed too much about myself. But part of me says go for it - and hope that those who disagree will do so without being disagreeable. And partly, i must admit, because i'm pretty sure nobody from the Church who might be on here too would a. be of the type to be condemning and exclude me and/or b. not particularly want the Bishop and leaders who could kick me out for my free-thinking to know that T/they T/themselves are on such a site. (GRIN, LOL, LMAO - mostly at me) And in some ways i see this a little bit like when maybe W/we define S/someone as "more" or "less" to be "really" M/s because T/they don't do it as W/we do it. Mostly i know i'm aggravated with myself for ever having been so stupid to have believed some of this "stuff" - to put it nicely. And to have been so obnoxious about it. Fortunately as AA has taught me life gives me second chances. it's late, i'm going to bed now - and i'll probably be horrified by what i right in the morning, letting P/people see how non-objective and passionate i am about things i might prefer to seem more academic about - again, LOL at me. *N.B. having people-pleasing to the max as a character defect sucks rotten eggs!!!!!!!!!!!!! As i said, i hope i didn't offend A/anyone who didn't need offending and that W/we can disagree without being too disagreeable. In other places on varying subjects i've got well and thoroughly "flamed" when i expressed my feelings as well as my thoughts on subjects that i often keep my passions secretly about - for F/folks who may speak English as a 2d or 3d language, flaming means inflammatory posts. i hope this does not come across this way - it is NOT intended to be so. And i hope i don't hurt A/anyone mostly, which is why i am sore tempted to delete the heck out of it and expect i'll be horrified by it when i awaken later - however, i'm not. Mostly because i suspect my late Master would be pleased by my expressing myself on this. (smile) j/L Papa's owned always: still proudly wearing His Collar and Ring, rest in peace Beloved Master/Husband! alias "granny" matrika ye olde crone, blessed be! 24 Nov 08, 9:48 AM deb0rah UK, 10 yrs Hi De, I guess I am an example of your lovers. I have never been faithful really over the years. Rog and I have slept with and played with others and I considered myself poly and capable. I classed myself as poly, the thoughts and surrounding jealousy that were a turn on for me ticked a box. I had my primary partner and I was the one pushing for it when I shouldn't have been. I tried to class poly as something lesser than my relationship, a classic mistake. I confused emotional masochism with polygamous feelings; wrong. Yes, you can all be madly in lust and have fun, but if you feel insecure in anyway, as feelings develop it all becomes a threat (well it did to me) and I wasn't secure enough or ready enough to handle that. So, what am I saying? I don't think you should always look at yourself and question why, more develop a study along the lines of expectations. You mention contracts and I feel the same issues arise with ownership at it's basest form. We all have expectations, if this happens you should do that, or if that is said this is the way you should handle it. I think poly needs permanent discussion and I know you do that as I have read some of your posts on IC. The thing is, it just needs re clarifying all the time for some people especially as things occur like meeting family, being brought closer in. Could it be that you were ready but they weren't? People's perceptions change within relationships over time anyway, something most people forget. We can get complacent or lazy, we can become obsessed. All extremes, but within that swing are levels that we all achieve at times. A relationship is often like a seesaw where one loves the other more at times and passions and feelings run at different temperatures. It always needs a glance. Maybe your partners had different perceptions of what poly would mean in the long term to you and for them. Relationships are hard enough in any way shape of form and good ones take work and communication. I thought I was ready for poly and a poly person. Deep down I still feel I am, I just don't think I'm quite there yet. I also know Rog loves someone else even though they're not together right now and it's me who ruined that. I hurt them both and didn't mean to and gave them false promises that I totally meant at the time. I am not doing that any more, I am trying to talk and talk and sort, it's different as something inside me has changed. I am ready to accept what it is I truly want and what I am ready for, which in fact makes me a better person and a better slave. The whole concept of my slavery primarily needs re negotiating within expectations and then once we are secure again, maybe, just maybe poly can be looked at. That's not very slave like of me I know and we have been together for 7 years. My point is things happen and you have to make a decision of working it all out or going. It could just simply be that they have different expectations of poly and they saw this as something that they would share and love doing, but that it wasn't enough as they wanted the whole primary partner route with kids, families etc. Actually being incorporated into a family is an emotional coming out in some respects and can be hard hitting as the reality, even if not admitted to to outsiders, is accepted within. That simple step could have been enough to make them realise that this wasn't for them. It wasn't a right or wrong decision, just one of time and circumstance. It also doesn't mean they lied unless it was to themselves. I too lied to myself and can see where I went wrong now, I couldn't then. I went in all guns blazing, yep I can do this. I couldn't and I failed miserably. I have had to re build myself with Roger's help, re build us and our relationship and re define us as an MS couple. That's a positive though. We are re defining and making good progressive steps in making me what he wants me to be as something changed within me during that time. Maybe that's a point for you too. This crisis will envelop your emotions and help you redefine them and what you want and need. Try not to come up with a solution for a while but listen to how you feel and you then also realise that you do live through it and a way out appears. In today's world, we are all so fast that we try to stick a plaster on it and move on. Be hurt, but take that as ok and a stepping stone to define what it is that matters to you and what you need from a partner/s! That journey alone is priceless as next time, and there will be a next time, you have invaluable data to enable you to state what it is you do and don't want. For example, you seem to be the type of person who is giving, so you don't have time for someone who then pushes and tests by saying I'm going but really means some get me, you have a chance to say that now, you know that. The partner whom you feel is a victim of social pressure will have to come to that conclusion one day too, just by himself as that's pert of life's process too. Unless he is ready to see that he wont, and lets face it that could take months or many years sadly as many will get hurt. This whole process will enable you to ask the questions that matter from those who are lucky enough to be with you. Good luck on your journey! Debs xx "Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man." John Knox Edited 24 Nov 08, 9:56 AM by deb0rah 24 Nov 08, 12:45 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Hi Debs.. ah you speak many truths and are intuitive about some of what is going on here. Thank you for taking the time to write to me. Yes, I think what has happened is my wants, and hopes changed. I started to have expectations which I had not fixed in stone as 'the facts' with anyone else. Perhaps I did not want to have expecations, as I find them to be inherently problematic and usually am trying to just observe and trust what I have, and celebrate it. - as expectations can be so destructive if they are not shared ones. And maybe I was still working that out. I am so used to not having expectations (those being inherently different from hopes) I didn't think I was having them. I just find out what is there and enjoy it./ As the circle became more involved with each other, it was simply a natural progression, not a cerebral decision, it almost in the first instance by accident because we all seemed to want and enjoy it and it was a way of us all seeing more of each other and the circle developing into more of a group structure. The thinking came afterwards when I realised what a big step it was, and decided to continue in this direction. Relationships began to overlap and BDSM started to happen amongst us as groups not separate pairs. IN the past I have usually kept most of my relationships out of sight of my family, and separate from each other, because only someone reliable and of deep importance should be welcome into the inner sanctum of my family. (in case they disappear). When I realised what we were doing I saw only how great it was and that somehow to artificially step in and stop it was so restrict something fantastic and yes I knew there was more risk attached. now I feel worried I have let my family down and also my remaining partners, particularly lucy who has lost a lot and this is knocking her slowly gained confidence about having men in our circle. I saw the going_mono one last night and talked further to clarify things. Being with us is what has led to him growing a desire to settle and father his own children,, and for him it could happen either way - the underlying point for him is poly is a choice, not a necessity for him like it is for me and that the mono route is more likely to find him the family he wants. I guess whatever way it is explained to me, I am polyamorous and someone dumping someone they love and are happy with is never going to make sense to me. however if he can choose to be and be happy with monogamy, then it is probably the right decision for him, and therefore one I can only step back and support however much it hurts me. I feel partly annoyed as it's the fall out from the slave disappearing on us which has caused a lot of this to be raised - eg my desire to feel and have confirmed security in my relationships, which then led to the realisation that my relationship with the going mono partner may not be ideal any longer and that I wanted more security. I worry sometimes despite how the unknowing monos around me in the community seem to think I have it all, I always have people interested in me, always people willing to fill the gaps, that as my soul brother Frankie worries, that maybe I am just seen as someone it's easy to take love from freely. WTF is one supposed to do about that tho! I can;t see me becoming a hard nosed bitch any time. I am suspecting one of the things I am going to now need to do is become more discerning. I am not sure how and with what parameters... maybe only enter into any kind of a relationship with someone who has potential for serious proper polyamoury. Maybe I am now incapable of doing causal. I am not a stop gap, or a convenient place to take love without commitment. I feel like my poly heart is broken. We are the most loving people in the world, surely, because we can love more than one, I enjoy to be loving without being prescriptive, and I thought without expectation and obligation - so why do we seem to attract people who get it so wrong? De Edited 24 Nov 08, 1:00 PM by Degenerate 24 Nov 08, 12:46 PM Degenerate UK, 3 yrs Bah this has moved me to tears now because I am talking about the best times of my life, which are now damaged without hope of repair. I just wanted to also say thanks. Because it is nice to discuss it somewhere with people who are sympathetic towards poly in general. Edited 24 Nov 08, 12:48 PM by Degenerate 24 Nov 08, 1:44 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs Hi De What sad posts! But I'm glad you've found SD! at last and have a home to discuss poly matters in a good, supportive environment. I'll add a disclaimer to let you know that I'm not in a poly family - J and I are mono but have involved a third before and will again (and in the right situation I'd have poly leanings... I think ) and J says who knows what the future will bring - so I have a lot of interest in the poly board but can't pretend to be an expert. I tend to read the threads, major in the bleedin obvious from time to time and give general basic type input if and when I feel it's helpful. But your last question really pulled me in... Why do poly people apparently attract the wrong sorts? I pondered on it awhile and just had to share with you. I think the answer is... for the same reason subs do. We're people's fantasies... and they forget that there's a real, feeling, thinking, breathing person on the other end too sometimes. Sometimes, we're fodder for immature people's 'fulfil a fantasy' dreams and we have to guard against it when our natures make us the worst cut out to do so. Or, more often perhaps, we match ourselves with people who are reading the same book but on a different page. The experience, commitment, aspiration levels can be different even when the heart is a good one and in the right place. And this is a more general problem shared with most of the human race. We don't see our needs changing as we grow so we go on seeking what we've always sought without rethinking why it's not working? I don't think you need to go all hard-nosed on everyone. But I do agree that being more discriminating and choosing those who are serious about forming a poly family is the right way to go. No hardness is required because part of this is about realising it for yourself! You've just caught up with your needs and desires for the future and realised that you've been making the wrong decisions for you for a little while and need to change. Others may not have the same awareness - like your lover dating those who want him to be mono. There's no malice aforethought as it were, they are just attracted to people who are at different stages without even realising I think. Perhaps because they sense you are more aware, more balanced and more comfortable... so be aware that that may increase rather than decrease with full awareness. Whatever, you are now better equipped to find what you need so don't let pain or anger in... you just made a huge step forward! Cut yourself some slack, and others too, and stay the same open loving person you are but with the knowledge that you are possessed of a clearer picture of what you need in your life now. It's sounds hard but gently telling someone that you KNOW they are not what you need in your life now is a kindness in a way... it avoids the kind of pain you're experiencing now, doesn't it? And it's not at all mercenary if you're fretting about that. What's different about that and choosing someone with the same goals in any partnership decision in life? If you want to marry and have kids, it's pointless dating married men. If you want a small dog to cuddle and live in a flat with one short walk a day, there's no point in going to look at a litter of dalmatians that need a daily five mile hike is there? It's responsible and thoughtful and mature and avoids cruelty in the long run. So, now you've realised where you are in your life and what you need to move forward. Give yourself time to absorb that... and to grieve the losses that moving on brings... and then go get em girl and be happy! all the best anjuli Edited to clarify ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 24 Nov 08, 2:50 PM by anjuli Next page