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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Decision-Making in M/s" Decision-Making in M/s (9) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Sat 27 Sep 08, 1:16 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs A friend of mine was asking me about how decisions get made in an M/s relationship – how much weight do I give my boy's words, what are needs vs. wants, etc. I wrote her this post, and then I thought that it might be useful for other people to read, especially beginners who haven't yet done this. Especially in light of Coffee's empowered submissive post. So here it is; people can feel free to comment..... All right. I could use my boy Joshua as an example, but since your difficulties with the idea seem like very personal fears, I'm going to use a theoretical you. Let's say that you're my slave. (I know that's not easy to imagine because you don't know me that well, but let's just suspend disbelief here.) Let's say that I notice that you've been getting behind on the chores I've ordered you to do, because you're on the Internet all the time, mostly on blogs and lists and forums. First, I sit you down and we have a conversation. I tell you what I've been seeing. You tell me that your Internet lists are an absolute necessity for you emotionally, and beg me not to take them away. Do I believe you? Well, considering that I've been studying you for the past several months or years, I'll know when you're lying to yourself. I'll know that voice and that body language. (If you're someone who would consciously lie to me, then you'd have been weeded out in the first week, and the point would be moot.) So I'll watch that. I'll listen to your reasons for needing large amounts of time on the Internet. I'll judge them as to how specious they sound, and what I know of how your mind works. I'm also probably wondering about whether I should give you an ultimatum – I'll let you prove to me that you can do all your chores without my cutting back your Internet time – or just say forget it, you get one hour a day and that's all. Which I pick will have a lot to do with what I know about you. Do you have time management difficulties that have required more supervision in the past? If so, I'm not bothering with an ultimatum. I know where that will get us – right back here again. If I do let you prove it to me, the first failure will boot you back to one hour a day, period. For, you see, I'm not some distant general giving commands from on high, not knowing or caring whether they cause you pain. I'm the exact opposite. I'm in your head already. I know you like a book. I know every emotion that crosses your face. I've interrogated you about everything, watching, judging, figuring you out. You are not allowed to hold anything back from me, and I long ago learned how to wrest out those thoughts that you weren't giving me. I can second-guess you almost every time. I am waiting around every mental corner for you, always one jump ahead. And really, you don't want to beat me at this, because it is deeply comforting to you that I am always one jump ahead. This is not distance. It's an intimacy so deep that most people would find it frightening. So let's say that I know you have time management difficulties, and you've failed me before, more than once, when asked to schedule your day effectively. Let's say that I decide that the Internet is a cookie, not protein. Or, more likely, that it's fast becoming an addiction that pulls you away from the important things. Free people have the privilege of fucking up their lives with addictive behaviors. You don't. You will be forced into healthiness whether you like it or not. I say so. Internet is down to one hour a day, period. And, in fact, I want you to take a week off, starting now. You can write one email or post telling people that you'll be away for a week. You probably feel terrible, and right now you hate me. What do I want you to be thinking at this point? We will have discussed that. I'll have given steps to take yourself through mentally in order to cope with a difficult order. The first one is to remind yourself that you signed up for this, that you knew that there would be hard things in among the good things. You will remind yourself, quickly, of what some of the good things are. You will remind yourself of why you signed up for this in the beginning, why it was the right choice for you. Second, you'll remember my track record. You'll remember all the times when I was right and you were wrong, regarding judgments about life issues. You'll remember that I am better at this than you, and that's why you chose me. You tell yourself that it's very likely this is for the best, and that it's worth it to wait and follow my word and see if I'm right yet again. You step on the inner voice that wants to prove me wrong. After all, my being consistently wrong would feed your ego, but ruin your trust in me as your owner, and it would be all over. If I'm right, you're inconvenienced, but you're safe, because it's reinforcement that I'm worth obeying. That's a better outcome, so it's worth waiting for, Third, when you've calmed down some, you think about my priorities, and consider this from my angle. After all, you've been observing me too, for months or years. You know me pretty well, and that's why you trust me. You remember how hard I work myself, how upset I get when I can't do my task because you've spaced doing one of yours that interlocked with it. You remember how pleased I am when we run smoothly, like a well-greased team, and everything falls into place. You remember what I look like when I'm pleased with you and with the life we've made together, and you desperately want to see that look on my face again. I know that this point will take a little while for you to come to, and that's all right. In the meantime, I'm painfully aware that you're angry, and hurt. Don't think it doesn't run through my brain to say never mind, go ahead, it's not such a big deal. Except that it would be. If I did that, then every time that I was thwarted because of your Internet habit from now on would make me feel terribly resentful towards you, and it's not good for an owner to feel resentment towards their slave. That can lead to all kinds of badness. I'd also resent myself for giving in, and I'd feel like I wasn't really in charge … and then we'd end up right back here. Better to do this now. Anyway, I can always change my mind later if it's really proven to me that you need it, or can handle it. I give you a little time to yourself. Perhaps I give you an order to do something that you actually like, but that is useful to me. Not intimacy, not sex – you're angry, and I want to let you cool down. I'll pick a chore that you find fun, or at least that you're good at, that will reinforce the link between doing what I want and feeling good. Later I check in on you, ask how you're feeling towards me. If you've been having trouble getting through the acceptance process above, I help you with that. We walk through it verbally. I'm supportive of you and give you positive reassurance for getting through it. The week goes by. I check in with you to see how you're feeling a few days into it. I want to know if you're obsessing over the blogs and posts you're missing; I'm looking for addictive behavior. If I see some, perhaps I start thinking about ways to get you more social contact that work within my schedule and needs. Perhaps I give you more attention. If this is a product of isolation, I want to do something about it. If it's something else – if, for example, I know you're prone to addictive behavior – I discuss that with you, and help you to see what I see. We talk about how you can deal with the Internet in a healthier way. The week is up, and now you're back on the Net for an hour a day. I watch to make sure your chores keep getting done. I wait a week and check in with you again, see how my decision is affecting you. Is this enough? Are you adjusting to it? Is there anything that can be done to help you with that? Of course, right now you're probably wondering: under what circumstances would I rescind that order and agree that you really do need four hours of Internet a day? Well, let's say that the problem is isolation. Let's say, further, that I've accepted a job on a tiny station in Greenland and dragged you, my slave, along with me. You don't speak the language, you have no one to talk to but me, and I'm busy most of the day. At that point, I'd have to look at my own choices. I brought you here, and I'm responsible for your mental health. I can't tell you to not need contact, any more than I can order you to flap your wings and fly. My choices are to let you have lots of Internet and put up with fewer chores, to enforce my rule and have you miserable and close to a meltdown, or to move home. I can't have everything, and as a mature human being I need to accept that. You may not always be aware of what's a need and what's a want, because your wants may feel very much like needs to you. It's my job to figure that out, from observation and experiment and deduction and intuition, and then I enforce it. I'll likely have made errors, especially in the beginning, but I will have made few enough that you trust me and my judgment to be better than yours. I know you better than you know yourself. Simultaneously, I'm constantly working to understand myself fully as well, so that no unconscious resentments or pettinesses well up and sabotage my handling of both our lives. You see that, and you admire it. It's part of why you trust me with this decision-making process, and why you can let go and let me tell you what to do. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 27 Sep 08, 3:18 AM 662-935-655 5 yrs Interesting example- i don't see internet as being a necessity for A/anyone myself included, although the 4 mos. after my late Master died when i was without computer were difficult and atime when i really could have used the support. (Esp. here and in my online AA group) it is perfectly possible to do without. Not that i'd ever want to again as one who can't leave one's house due to medical reasons can go stir crazy. But i think that what You are trying to get at is the difference between wants and needs, perhaps? i have noticed that alot of the slaves on here- whether due to youth or inexperience, perhaps both in some cases - don't have a clear understanding of that difference. i have even had times when not only did i not have computer access, i didn't have the boob - tube - - and i was expected to read, write in journals, write letters and otherwise accomplish something around the house. and this was before my collaring right from the start of the marriage. Master just refused to pay for t.v. when the ads on it should be paying for it and W/we couldn't get t.v. without cable,soooo....... Having lost all i owned 3 times in my life to get rid of 3 abusive PRIOR TO MASTER ex-spouses, and at the time i thought it was a bargain, i have learned just how much one can live without. That doesn't mean O/one has to like it - but esp. as a sub or slave, one can do far more than one thinks, in my opinion. and if a Master/Owner doesn't stretch the evelope of a slave's/sub's limits then They are doing the slave a dis-service, in my opinion. Privileges vs rights it has also been called on here. j/L Papa's owned always: still proudly wearing His Collar and Ring, rest in peace Beloved Master/Husband! "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" Janis Joplin 9 Nov 08, 1:34 AM SL_precious CA, 3 yrs i think sometimes on the surface to those outside, there is a misconception that being an Owner is easy..handing out orders and making decisions. When in fact as Raven has described, there is a great deal of thought and care given to those decisions to ensure the well being of the slave and the relationship. There is much time and effort invested by the Owner to gain this level of insight and intimacy with their slave, and it gives us great comfort. Even if the decision may not be what we initially want, it is easier to accept knowing it was made with purpose. SL's precious 14 Nov 08, 1:15 AM shedragon US(VA), 4 yrs Y! Raven, do you by any chance have a clone in the DC Metro area? If so, I'd love to meet him! What really resonated with me throughout your post is the fact that the decisions you make are not based on purely selfish motivations. Yes, you base the decisions on what will help your slave serve you the best way possible. But in order to get there, you take into consideration the health, needs, desires, and abilities of the slave. I have met too many men who base their decisions purely on how they can get the service and attention they want, with no regard for the one serving them. There may be slaves who prefer that kind of owner, but I would prefer one who takes into account what is best for the relationship and the parties involved in it, not just himself. To me, it just seems like common sense that if a slave is secure in the knowledge that her owner has her best interests in mind, then the slave will be more likely to trust the owner and the decisions he makes. It is better to remain uncollared than to be led by the wrong leash. 14 Nov 08, 12:13 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I presume that I missed this while I was away Raven. It's a wonderful post and yet could be a bit close to the bone for me right now having had a brief disagreement with Master over leaving the desk and going to bed last night (not that I didn't want to! I just wanted a few more minutes to finish something on the laptop - and yeah I know!) I hope coffee gets to see it - I am sure it will be most helpful and enlightening to him - but I wanted you to know that it's already been helpful and made me think much more deeply about what is going on when J makes a decision like that and enforces it - much to my chagrin at the time. <wry smile and lift of eyebrows> Arrrgh! I hate it when you make me feel like a heel! Sorry, make that when I make me feel like a heel! anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 14 Nov 08, 1:55 PM by anjuli 14 Nov 08, 4:04 PM 741-498-880 4 yrs I will be honest, that since the internet is my "only" link to adults and the outside world during the week, that taking it away would depress me... Not because I am addicted, but because with out adult interaction, even in reading posts or sharing or talking to others in the lifestyle, I would go insane from lack of adult conversation. I live inthe middle of the no-where. I haven't seen either of my neighbors in over 2 years. So for me, having the ability to talk to someone is something my Owner allows me to do for my emotional and psychological health.... Its also how I write, do my work and projects, is my only resource and link to my friends as I don't usually call them. (I also am deaf in one ear, so reading for me is easier then talking on the phone to my friends via instant messengers.) My owner encourages me to have a support network of like-minded friends. While I can see how the internet wouldn't be "Needed" for someone who works, or goes to school and gets out of the house enough, I can see why it wouldn't be needed... but for someone who's stuck at home with no outside contact with the real world... its a nessecity for my sanity in the long run.... and one my Owner allows me to have. Edited 14 Nov 08, 4:05 PM by 741-498-880 14 Nov 08, 7:52 PM Mistress_Tiara 5 yrs Raven's post was very interesting & I recognize that particular dance. I've snipped just two of the points to discuss for now. ravenkaldera wrote: Free people have the privilege of fucking up their lives with addictive behaviors. You don't. You will be forced into healthiness whether you like it or not. This is an issue that we come up against every now and then - not with the internet, but with other things. My boy follows this pattern of instant resentment and anger when I intervene over things I think are not good for him/ us but does usually slowly come around. His TV 'habit' has been culled, along with his alcohol consumption (which wasn't excessive just to be clear - just more than I thought was best), and excessive meat consumption, as well as various other things he had seen as entitlements vital for his emotional wellbeing and happines. As a result of him having these pleasures less now, I have sanctioned an increase in other, more healthy pastimes - he goes on regular lengthy mountain bike rides in the forest, is allowed out in his motorbike more regularly & I buy him books. If I just took away his pleasures without any thought to the gap left by their absence that would not ultimately lead to him being happy - this way he still gets to enjoy leisure pursuits that he enjoys, but they are ones I consider to be better for him/ us. I'm happy, he's happy - decision made. ravenkaldera wrote: Don't think it doesn't run through my brain to say never mind, go ahead, it's not such a big deal. Except that it would be. If I did that, then every time that I was thwarted because of your Internet habit from now on would make me feel terribly resentful towards you, and it's not good for an owner to feel resentment towards their slave. That can lead to all kinds of badness. Absolutely. I have let things go sometimes because I thought 'well it's not that big a deal. If I insist on this there will be ill feeling and tension which I will then have to deal with, when in the greater scheme of things he is a good slave so maybe I can let this thing go as it's only my preference, not a matter of great earth shattering importance'. And I end up feeling resentful & things have got worse. It makes it impossible for a slave to know what their Owner wants if it's not communicated clearly to them, and it makes the relationship lose it's M/s essence if an Owner starts to think of their preference as not important. I tend to do this when I'm tired & feel like I just don't have the energy for dealing with any drama - it's not a good move though, so I try to do it far less than I used to. Great thread btw. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 8 Feb 09, 3:33 AM Moebius_Master US(LA), 3 yrs Y! I think this is a great topic started by a great post. I want to point out that the reality will very slightly from couple to couple. My slave from the outset is completely aware the the direction of her personal development will suit me. All decisions to be made are made by me. I am her Master. There are no rights or privileges there is only my will. My slave is has been clearly made aware that her continued growth is of paramount importance to me. She knows that I want her to become more so that she can give me more. The only concession I give is the one that nature demands. Her interests and likes are the things I make my own plan for her personal development out of so that she will naturally excel in her given avenues of self-exploration. My relationship with my slave is such that she always defers to my decisions. She is expected to offer an opinion only when I ask for it. I am in total control of every aspect of her life. I know that level of trust is special and I love her for giving it to me. She is truly a joy to have as a slave. She still needs training to learn how to focus her life on serving me but she is eagerly learning every lesson I teach. I have given her to understand that she is a block of stone and I am her sculptor of body, spirit and mind. Though this may seem extreme even for this venue I assure you that my slave willingly, eagerly and happily consents to this level of Mastery that I have over her. She is sassy by nature and she knows that she is ordered at all times to communicate her feelings with me. I may consider them in my decision or I may not but I will always listen as I am aware I am not omniscient. The reason our relationship works as it does is because my slave is aware that I am fully capable of being objective in even the most personal of decisions. She trusts my judgment implicitly and she wants to live her life for me the way I want it to be. She is a wonderful slave. I am a very lucky Master. Master Moebius True slavery is voluntary. Fear is the tool of the weak. The human spirit is indominatable. Breaking a spirit destroys it. Rule by fear creates a safe pocket of sanity you cannot touch. Domination through inspiration lets you take it all. Only the strong can achieve total domination. 10 Feb 09, 10:37 PM crystalredroze US(OH), 4 yrs Y! Raven, For one i would like to say that i really like the way that" made up " situation was handled. further more i believe the post was mainly about the decision process, i cant say that Masters process is a whole lot different than what you wrote. We have had our "commuication" breakdowns however they were mainly on my end and we were able to resolve them and things have gotten much better. It does take lots of time and getting to know each other and each others reactions to situations for things to properly work. On another note, i'll be the first to admit that the past few months i'm on the computer for at least 3 to 4 hours a day. Master decided to go back to work for a bit and i have nothing to do and only a few friends where i live. i moved here away from everyone i knew and so he understands that the computer is my main way to stay in touch, not to mention that ive been learning a lot and that pleases Him. as long as things get dome He dosent care how long i'm on here. Master isnt on this site at this time however i do think i will show Him this post tonight when He gets home. i'm sure he will be impressed by it and maybe even a bit inspired. 11 Feb 09, 3:35 AM Lord_Laraby US(NY), 6 yrs Y! Excellent post Raven. Thank you for that, bro. Call me LL