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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "The Empowered Submissive?" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 The Empowered Submissive? (68) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 30 Sep 08, 11:58 PM x_Ancilla_x 4 yrs little_linnet wrote: anjuli wrote: What if you agree to become a slave with all the foreknowledge you can lay your hands on but still don't really get it? There is still that process to go thro of the M type knowing it's right for the s in question and the dragging the at times not so willing s into the right way of thinking. Yep, this is part of what I'm getting at, ultimately whatever "choice" is exercised by the submissive in the beginning of the relationship, ultimately the success of the relationship is going to be dependent on the *dominant's* ability to asses hir own abilities, needs, and the abilities and needs of the submissive and the compatibility between the two. Even with consent, if these things aren't meshing it's not going to work, and even without consent, if they mesh it can work brilliantly. That's why I think compatibility is way ahead of consent in terms of importance to the ethics of the relationship. I think that even with all the foreknowledge you can lay your hands on no one can predict exactly how it will change them, how your self concept and behaviour might re-arrange into a new configuration. Even where the dominant's well motivated and knows the s well, I'm not sure that he/she can always predict either. It's a case of a constant process of formulation of a strategy, observation and feedback and reformulation in my opinion, guided by the dominant's overall aims. A dominant needs to be able to perceive accurately and respond appropriately. I agree that compatibility's possibly the most important element. However… little_linnet wrote: I just come up over and over again on this end point, that ultimately in M/s that works, the owner holds the responsibility for knowing what's best for everyone in the relationship, and knowing it better than the slave does. It seems to me like in some (many?) relationships this extends to actually initiating the relationship as well. Dominant knows submissive well (maybe more well than the submissive realizes!), makes up hir mind that this is someone sie would like to own and who would thrive being owned and goes and does it. As you say, it's different from the psycho who snatches someone off the street and breaks them to complete servitude. It's different from the schmuck who's basically looking for any woman who's willing to treat him like she's a cross between a French maid and a mommy. It revolves, just as enslavement itself does, around the dominant's understanding of the submissive and concern for the submissive's welfare. So I think for me if there's a single acid test for the ethics of an enslavement relationship, this is it. The dominant's motivation and knowledge of the submissive. A second acid test would be how the submissive fares in the relationship, but of course the issue with that one is that you can't apply it until the submissive has already been *in* the relationship and had its mark made on hir. (My bold) How can a Dom/me have the requisite knowledge of the submissive at the outset to override consent, or does this assume a period of knowing each other before the Dom/me decides to enslave? Doesn't getting to know someone sufficiently take time? I agree that a dominant must hold the submissive's welfare pre-eminent but doesn't a submissive have a responsibility to establish that the Dom/me does indeed have his/her welfare at heart if it's a relatively new relationship? S/he can't rely on this knowledge about the dominant as someone in a more seasoned relationship can. I suppose what I'm saying is in the absence of explicit consent, what responsibilities does a submissive have towards him/herself? 1 Oct 08, 12:10 AM little_linnet US, 6 yrs x_Ancilla_x wrote: does this assume a period of knowing each other before the Dom/me decides to enslave? Doesn't getting to know someone sufficiently take time? Definitely yes and yes. I agree that a dominant must hold the submissive's welfare pre-eminent but doesn't a submissive have a responsibility to establish that the Dom/me does indeed have his/her welfare at heart if it's a relatively new relationship? In a perfect world yes, but is it possible that if a dominant has the charisma/power/skill/knowledge to override consent at the beginning of a relationship then in some cases there may be little a submissive can do, beyond communicating as clearly as possible and honestly monitoring their own reactions as objectively as they can? Granted, no submissive should deliberately go diving into a relationship wholeheartedly without getting to know the score a little first. I suppose what I'm saying is in the absence of explicit consent, what responsibilities does a submissive have towards him/herself? Off the top of my head (and of course this excludes the people who never thought of themselves as submissive before their dominants got a hand on them): know themselves. Be in the habit of being brutally honest about themselves, their relationships, their interactions and the people they know. Recognize that they deserve to have their needs met. Identify those needs as clearly as possible. Learn to be assertive in personal interactions. Be willing to fight for needs that aren't being met, or to get out of relationships that aren't good for them. Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintanence is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. 7 Oct 08, 7:11 AM 163-605-552 AU, 3 yrs Hi All, Wow I had to go away for 10 days, I come back and to my surprise this thread seems to have grown and grown taking on a life of its own. I must admit I take a certain degree of pride in knowing that my innocent and honest questioning has helped to facilitate so many thoughtful and intelligent responces from so many of you here. It has been a pleasant education for me, that has allowed me to generate a feeling of genuine respect. Krista as you suggestted it is going to take a considerable amount ot time to digest much of what has been written here. Lucky me. Some of the things I need to get a grip on a personal and emotional level to gain a better appreciation of myself. Other arguments I need to mull over from more of a intellectual perspective. But are no less important. My overridding feeling at this point, is one of reassurance. I don't feel a fraction of the isolation that was overwelming me only a month ago. I still have a mass of questions and thoughts but hopefully they can be expressed in due course. Raven thanks for your perspective. Your quite right I am somewhat terrified of being vulnerable to an arsehole. That in the process of allowing some light to fall on the much hidden sub part of my personality, instead of being enriched I will end up exploited. The costs far outweighing the reward. In answer to your question I haven't been in a D/s relationship as yet so my viewpoint is still slanted by assumptions, but I can think of people that I have trusted and respected in the manner Joshua described. It obviously wasn't a sexual relationship, but the issue of "honour" in assessing the quality of someone character rings very true. In this instance while I still have great respect for the person concerned I have also learnt as I have grown older that poeple are not the super hero's you wish them to be in your youth. It doesn't diminish my sense of respect and loyalty, it actually strengthens it somewhat given that people that suceed inspite of human frailty are far more deserving of praise than the "superhero's" of our imagination. Anyway I digress. All I meant was that the adult realization that all men are fallible, has not made me cynical, but it has made be careful and aware. " Trust everyone, but cut the cards" as the saying goes. If an expectation of "honour" is a building block of the contract between the D/s then this is most reassuring. I hope I haven't misinterpreted this, or been too "vanilla" in my assessment. My thought on this instance is this. It takes time to build a healthy D/s realtionship. But where do you start? I am to some extent imbued with the wider world notions of love and romance in forming sexual partnerships. I guess filled with smiles and courtship. Gay or straight it can be an appealling picture. The basis of building friendship and communication through the carrot rather than than stick. In this rosey world view, filled for the most part with positive reinforcement how do the potential D and s relate to one another? How do you assess the potential of a prospective partner? How do you know the collar will be a good fit, when its all hearts and flowers? The introductions on other sites that are all about " 24/7 slave... no limits..." (and that's the polite part.) seem to be at odds with the carefully considered process of building a effective D/s relationship that seems to have been conveyed here. I realize part of this is just my unfamilarity, but they hardly fill me with confidence. They may shout control, but they dont even begin to whisper character. Any thought for the newbie? Coffee. 7 Oct 08, 11:37 AM anjuli UK, 4 yrs 163-605-552 wrote: The introductions on other sites that are all about " 24/7 slave... no limits..." (and that's the polite part.) seem to be at odds with the carefully considered process of building a effective D/s relationship that seems to have been conveyed here. I realize part of this is just my unfamilarity, but they hardly fill me with confidence. They may shout control, but they dont even begin to whisper character. Any thought for the newbie? Once again, Coffee, you're spot on. And my thought for you is... trust your instincts, listen to what your inner voice is telling you too and wait til you get that whisper. That is what all those with the ads you're referring to don't have the good sense, wit or character to do. 163-605-552 wrote: If an expectation of "honour" is a building block of the contract between the D/s then this is most reassuring. I hope I haven't misinterpreted this, or been too "vanilla" in my assessment. Absolutely... and not in the least a vanilla interpretation. An M/s relationship is a huge test of honour, and as you said before, character, on both parts. You will be tested. And you need to be sure that it's a solid part of the makeup of the one you give yourself to. And as for love and romance, it depends on the M-type but there's nothing to say that it is either inimical to or a required part of an M/s relationship. Some prefer a little distance and speak of the responsibility, protection and deep care and concern that they feel for their s rather than love. Some don't feel that being in love undermines their mastery and that's the way they want things. Both are okay and the nice thing is that at this point, you get to choose which type is right for you. I think you'll find it easier than you think to see thro the rosy glow of a new relationship or romance to the M/s elements and your compatibility on that level though because if you're talking to those who know what they want and need the two will not be separate... there will be no 'honeymoon period' that is somehow separate when you're allowed to be equal, a lover rather than a sub... the M will be taking control throughout and driving the relationship. Your job at that point is to stop worrying and let them. But then I speak from the experience of one who left a vanilla marriage and sought out a D/s one and found a 'Dom' to help me learn and explore - longterm but without 'love' being part of the equation. Ahem... that didn't last long. And when J decides he wants a change of direction, he has a way of getting what he wants. There are of course people who get married and then discover and learn about the lifestyle together but I can't really comment on that - way out of my sphere of experience - I don't know how that works or happens. Complicated... and the hard route, I suspect. I'm glad you're getting lots from the thread. I shall say again it's been great, and immensely thought-provoking for me too, so thank you. It's wonderful to see some of our best being drawn out on deeper points and to be able to learn something new. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 9 Oct 08, 1:40 AM 163-605-552 AU, 3 yrs Hi Krista, My first chance to look over your response on the 26th September. Just a quick one today I hope because I really do need to keep work issues in context here. I was really glad you parried my religious metaphor so effectively. In hindsight it was a cheap shot on my part. Abraham was an obvious reference, but what I sort of overlooked is that every time you use biblical analogies it can carry a judgemental overtone. Intoning the “word of god” to suggest the strength of an argument without benefit of critical analysis. I particularly liked your real world references… “My first born on life support “etc It did tend to put your devotion to Mr Ls authority within a context that I clearly understand and accept. My feeling at this point and this feeling is by no mean absolute, is that even the most committed sub is swayed by forces that determine how they interpret control. While the desire to control or be controlled is deeply held, we are also imprinted by a lifetime of social conditioning. That balance is dynamic for all of us, and that is a good thing. In Ravens case this manifests itself as a formal contract, a code of conduct upon which the relationship is based. The s gives control with the expectation that the D's character will be worthy of the trust. Step outside the code of conduct from either party and the contract is void or the relationship is at risk of failing. In your case I assume there is no formal contract as such with Mr L. however you still appear to place great trust in the content of his character, and if heaven forbid, you were pushed to the point of choosing a course of action totally at odds with your inner voice you would choose to shutdown/ collapse rather than cross that line. Hence in this case I would respectfully suggest that control is limited in this case by passive resistance. Again a good thing, given my current outlook. Have I made a correct interpretation in this case? I realize in this response I haven't referenced this to any personal insight that effects me, but I hope this gives me a better understanding of the people whose thoughts I'm privileged to be sharing. 9 Oct 08, 3:58 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs 163-605-552 wrote: Raven thanks for your perspective. Your quite right I am somewhat terrified of being vulnerable to an arsehole. That in the process of allowing some light to fall on the much hidden sub part of my personality, instead of being enriched I will end up exploited. The costs far outweighing the reward. You're welcome. BTW, you might want to look at a thread that I started while you were gone - it gives a good idea of what goes on in the owner's head, and how decisions are made in M/s, who has what kind of say. It's here: http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/177847/0/#17... 163-605-552 wrote: In this instance while I still have great respect for the person concerned I have also learnt as I have grown older that poeple are not the super hero's you wish them to be in your youth. It doesn't diminish my sense of respect and loyalty, it actually strengthens it somewhat given that people that suceed inspite of human frailty are far more deserving of praise than the "superhero's" of our imagination. I'm certainly not perfect. I can't be. I can, however, be worthy of being followed. 163-605-552 wrote: If an expectation of "honour" is a building block of the contract between the D/s then this is most reassuring. I hope I haven't misinterpreted this, or been too "vanilla" in my assessment. It had bloody well be. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 9 Oct 08, 7:40 PM little_linnet US, 6 yrs 163-605-552 wrote: if heaven forbid, you were pushed to the point of choosing a course of action totally at odds with your inner voice you would choose to shutdown/ collapse rather than cross that line. Hence in this case I would respectfully suggest that control is limited in this case by passive resistance. Again a good thing, given my current outlook. Have I made a correct interpretation in this case? I think you're real, real close. The only thing you're missing is that the shutdown isn't a choice on any meaningful level. It's a result of him pushing me farther than I can go, but that's not a line I determine, it's just what I am. If I'm pushed to shut down, it's in the hardware, the hardware's had more than it can take. So if he were to push me so much too hard that the relationship broke apart irrevocably, it wouldn't be that I chose to end it; it would be that he did something that broke it. Krista Also, there's the Batman guide to retribution. Batman would have hung this guy from a building and dropped him repeatedly, catching him each time before he hit, just to drive the point home. So when it comes to vigilante justice, let the Batman be your guide. 21 Oct 08, 4:37 AM submissiveheart US(NY), 6 yrs Soooo just wanted to check in and say I'm not blowing this thread off and the things discussed. Been dealing with some intense issues (housing, crazy peeps, job stuff, the economy crashing) and getting clarity. Got great people around me, so I am blessed. Hope everyone is doing well in these strange times. I'll get on this thread when I have the time to research feminism discourse. I'm very interested in that angle.