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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Advice on how (not) to fight?" 1 2 3 Advice on how (not) to fight? (22) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 6 Aug 08, 1:51 AM 942-784-782 3 yrs Sometimes when tempers flare in my relationship and it looks like it's heading towards a fight, I step back and ask my Master whether this is a situation where He wants to hear my assessments and opinions, or wants me just to hear Him and obey? That seems to give us both a minute or so to think about what we are doing and where the conversation is going. It doesn't always work out or avoid conflict, but my experience is that more often than not, it does. Also, have you guys considered sitting down and really figuring out how you are going to handle conflict in periods of relative vanilla-ness? Having some kind of pre-determined road map for conflict resolution is very helpful, I've found. Best, 942-784-782 6 Aug 08, 5:04 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs In the early stages of our relationship, I would periodically get my brain stolen by aliens and forget that Joshua's job was to do whatever I said, and that he would actually do that. I'd argue with him when he disagreed with me, instead of just saying, "I don't care if you disagree, just do it." Many, many years of relationships with non-slaves had conditioned me to react in a specific way to conflict with a partner. I had absolutely zero visible examples of how I should act. I had plenty of bad example - stubborn, irrational people that I didn't respect demanding that everyone do what they sayt unquestioningly. I very much didn't want to be that, but I had little idea where to go. And yes, part of it is the subconscious part that thinks that this is really too good to be true. Yeah, sure, they say that they're your slave, but hey, look what happens I provoke an argument? It took me a while to realize that Joshua, chameleon who wants to please that he is, was sensing that I wanted an argument and doing his best on some level to provide me with that. When we finally figured out what was going on, with a lot of radically honest and painful conversation, well, I realized that it was all on me. He could help, but it was on me to stop that. I started by being honest about how I wanted him to act/react, and saying that, and telling myself that indeed he would do his best to be that way for me. His job was to give me positive mastery experiences in that situation. I've said before that the main job of the sub in "master training" is to be very, very invested in giving the dominant positive experiences, like, "Wow, I tell him to shut up, and he actually does it! And he doesn't hate me in the morning, and tell me that I suck for cutting off his freedom of expression! And he finds a way to be OK with it, because it's what I want! Wow, this thing really works!" I'm being ingenuous, but hopefully you know what I mean. I'm not a passive-aggressive type - more straight-up aggressive - but one way to handle passive-aggression when you're legitimately on the sub side is to be even more passive and give them nothing to spar against. For instance, when he snarls snarkily, you could stop, breathe, center yourself, and say, "Sir, if I have upset you I am sorry. What would you like me to do, right now, to fix the problem?" With this, you bring it right into the open - you'll do anything to make him happy, and you mean it. And then, no matter how stupid or painful it is, you do it. It's proving to his subconscious that you really are that willing to accede to his demands. It's especially important to do it when it's something that he knows will be hard for you, and that you'll dislike. You can, however, legitimately say, "Sir, I'm having a hard time with this. Could you please help me to find a way to be more at peace with it?" This dumps into his lap that you are vulnerable and need his aid, and he is wise and in charge. Not an adversary at all. If you can say it completely raw and honest, it's not manipulation. It means that he had better get off his ass and be wise and in charge and come up with solutions. If he repeatedly fails at that, he's in the wrong line of work. Joshua did this for me in the beginning, on my orders, as a reminder to knock me out of "partner" headspace and into "boss" headspace. It worked well, and helped me to get over my shit. There's a line in a poem that I wrote about submission, that goes: "Help me to be like the ocean's water, which, when struck, does not strike back, but yields and moves again to fill all space." That's the attitude that you want to have during these situations. Very Zen, flowing, yielding. If you give him nothing for his fist to connect with, he may eventually come to believe that you are not an opponent. Best I can do for you. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 7 Aug 08, 7:28 PM kittentakara 6 yrs Raven, thank you for that Post. I spend time reading and help me come to some realisations. so thank you :D takara 7 Aug 08, 11:58 PM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs Regarding fighting…I never do it. Seriously, I never do it. Here is the why and how… Suppose we fight and she “wins' the fight. In that case I wind up the loser. Okay…suppose we fight and I win. In that case she loses. Well, if she loses, then I'm the loser. So it she wins then I lose; If I win, then I lose. Either way, I lose. So why would I fight at all? I have learned to forgive the sins against Me and I have learned to forgive My own sins. I certainly do not hold a grudge. How could that possibly benefit Me? In the end, I have to weigh whether or not any of My actions will result in any benefit to either her or Me. If there is no benefit to either of us, there is no reason to embark upon the course of action. Fighting and arguing are both counterproductive. They will not make either of our lives better. So I just won't do it. Anyway, there is enough opportunity for conflict in the world outside My home. I simply refuse to invite it into the place where I want harmony to reign. Being honest and open and brave are fundamental characteristics all should cultivate to ensure a harmonious life. Honesty is important for reason that should be entirely obvious. Openness is important so that you never keep secrets and so that you can talk about absolutely everything. And bravery is important so that you can always bring up the things that are troubling you with the security of knowing you will not be met with antagonism and anger. I suppose that this is all so that you can trust one another. So there you are. That is My recipe for a happy life with the one you love. And you should love. Love strongly, deeply and with all your heart. It is what makes all of us attractive. The capacity to love one another is what makes us better than almost everything else. Yeah, I know that My cats love Me and I love them, too. But they love Me when I feed them and pet them and that sort of stuff. They do not love Me like “she” does! That My friends is true love…you think that happens every day? I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** Edited 8 Aug 08, 4:19 AM by Remoses 8 Aug 08, 12:08 AM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs Oh, I want to add one more thing. If you want to diffuse a potential conflict, instead of responding to a correction of your behaiour with the phrase; "Yeah, but you said...", try saying something like "Yeah, I see what you mean. I made a mistake and I will try my best to never do that again." It offers no opportuity to continue the conflict and it allows you to understand the reason you are being corrected. It allows you to accept the leadership your Owner is offering and it allows you a graceful way out of a potential conflict. Loose that "Yeah, but..." from your vocabulary. It really works. Instead of having an adversary, you will gain a strong ally. Really, try it. I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** Edited 8 Aug 08, 4:20 AM by Remoses 8 Aug 08, 3:11 PM sweetjane US, 3 yrs Remoses wrote: If you want to diffuse a potential conflict, instead of responding to a correction of your behaiour with the phrase; "Yeah, but you said...", try saying something like "Yeah, I see what you mean. I made a mistake and I will try my best to never do that again." It offers no opportuity to continue the conflict and it allows you to understand the reason you are being corrected. It allows you to accept the leadership your Owner is offering and it allows you a graceful way out of a potential conflict. Loose that "Yeah, but..." from your vocabulary. OK, seriously? I can't really imagine giving the "yeah, but" response. I suppose I could see how I made that sort of thing seem like it might be the problem, and believe me, I really do wish it were that simple. There are two things that might might be helpful for you to understand: First, I never really evolved having the sort of relationship conversations that include the "yeah but you said" sort of thing... which seems like maybe more a of a problem that someone new to this sort of dynamic would have? Second, I have a tremendous amount of trouble with nuance. I'm great with a direct order, but when things are phrased in an emotional and fluid way, like what I've termed "vanilla fighting," I'm completely at sea. You're describing a sort of middle-ground thing I don't really even know how to do. This is the sort of thing I mean: Something will begin to bother him, and he'll begin to start a "discussion" over it in very mainstream-relationship-counseling sort of ways. Huffiness, lots of "I" statements sort of dropped there with no indication what to do with them ("I feel X when you do Y!"), detailed descriptions of times he's been pissed off being sort of presented as "evidence," rather than as correction ("and then you said X even though I'd ALREADY done Y and you didn't even wait for me to tell you!") Dissatisfied with the carefully neutral responses he receives, which are perhaps less submissive than they could be because I don't even realize I'm being CORRECTED and think he's just giving information ("Oh, I see." "That's interesting."), he escalates. There's a lot of huffing, eye-rolling, and extreme rudeness. Nastiness of a sort I'm not used to--harshness I understand, sure, but nastiness really throws me. The nastiness will escalate despite anything I can do. The statements will become more hyperbolic and less accurate. Eventually, I will turn on a dime, so to speak, and go on an attack the point of which is essentially designed to Make Him Stop This Right Now. Which is usually so sudden and so scary that it works, until he realizes what just happens and flips out. Since I'm still in fight mode, it can get ugly. Or, if I try to completely back down, he'll basically not let me. Only during these fights will he say things like "I just don't understand what you want me to do!" and behave extremely submissively; by this point my answer to that is likely to be a snapped "Stop whining." Can you see how this is COMPLETELY damaging to our relationship? Yeah. I thought so. Here are the problems as I see them. His: 1) He is unable to/refuses to differentiate between symptoms of Asperger's and genuine defiance. Since a sudden change can cause all my gears and wheels to grind to a stop while I reorient, he takes this as my "not doing what he's told me to do." 2) When he's genuinely irked, he fights the way he's fought with girlfriends through the ages, which includes a lot of bitchiness and "proving he's right." Mine: 1) I'm obtuse. I mean really infuriatingly obtuse. 2) I have two settings, basically, Submission and Attack. I have absolutely no let's-work-this-out-together middle-ground skillset, and I don't know how to get one. So, I keep writing novels on this thread, hoping someone can give me some advice of some sort. A lot of what you have written has been amazing. In the real world, I'm putting together some of what I've posted here and some journal-type writing into an organized form and asking if he'd like to read it. I'm trying to "be the change I want to see" in terms of not rising to the bait. And in general, I'm just continuing to try and learn to love. Thanks for responding, though... it's been actually hugely helpful simply to air these problems with people who get the basics of the relationship! -indie Edited 8 Aug 08, 3:12 PM by sweetjane 8 Aug 08, 4:09 PM anjuli UK, 4 yrs I hope there is something you can find that will help in some way in what's gone before indie but the biggest question raised by your last one is... why? Why can he not or will he not differentiate between bad behaviour and aspergers inhibited response from you? This I really don't get. As far as him defaulting to fighting like he always has with past girlfriends, it's not much help to you but he has to stop. If he wants an M/s dynamic he has to work on himself first. Honestly? I don't think YOU can fix this. It's up to him because as Raven will tell anyone with the ears to hear... it's all on the dominant one's head. And it's true. If he can't get a grip of himself and stop the terrible effect of his tirades on you then you cannot enforce the dynamic from below. Particularly not if your submission in the face of his aggression just drives him to push and push until you fight. I'm sorry, it's probably the worst answer possible but unless you can somehow get him to see that he has work to do, I don't see how your dynamic can thrive. I'm thinking about ya and will keep pondering in case there's something I've missed. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 8 Aug 08, 7:30 PM Remoses US(PA), 6 yrs My thoughts on fighting or more specifically, not fighting, were intended for everyone who might read this thread. If I slighted the OP, do forgive Me for that. I have found that it takes considerable effort and will to avoid conflict, but once you learn how to do that, it then becomes effortless. I do not mean to simply avoid conflicts. But when the cause (and source) of conflicts are not allowed to swell and overcome the desirable harmony, well, that is the desirable outcome. What I'm talking about is not just an avoidance technique. Instead, it is a technique to make oneself and one's partner into a more compatible and civilized couple. Fighting is unnecessary. It is counterproductive. Disagreements do happen. But the real difference is all in how you manage the disagreements. If I may be provocative, fighting is a sort of "childish" response to disagreement, there is a more adult response. And it does not involve arguments or fighting. It does require a certain amount of discipline and maturity. I guess, as in all things, the choice is yours... I am Remoses. Just because it's inconvenient, doesn't mean it's not required. Quod principi placet legis habet vigorem (The pleasure of the prince has the force of law.) **Pronounce it: Ray-mosay.** Edited 9 Aug 08, 5:44 AM by Remoses 8 Aug 08, 8:38 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Remoses wrote: Fighting is unnecessary. It is counterproductive. Disagreements do happen. But the difference is all in how you manage the disagreements. It's a true thing. Christopher (owner/husband) and I don't fight. I know it's non-productive but the main reason we don't fight is because C won't have it. From time-to-time I will attempt to provoke him to it out of frustration from not being able to change his mind but he recognizes it for what it is. If I persist I am given a caged time-out and discussion goes no farther until I've settled. He is consistent in it which in turn has caused me to reevaluate my provocation more and more often - it rarely happens anymore. This way, our disagreements are turned into win-win situations. Camille 12 Aug 08, 2:23 PM sweetjane US, 3 yrs Just thought I'd post an update of sorts--things have really settled into a positive pattern, and a great deal of what was written here, particularly regarding exactly how little influence over the situation I really had, helped me (I think) to be part of that positive trend. As for him, he's chosen to take total responsibility for letting things fall apart; the situation has NOT recurred, rather he's focused on establishing routines and structures (the EXACT thing an aspie needs). Thank you all for your help, and for wading through my interminable posts. We had a lovely time at the conference, by the way, and are rather wondering if we saw anyone from this board there (we were only there on Saturday). despite being pretty solitary and unsociable by nature, he's decided it's probably going to be a good idea for us to get a bit more involved in the community, so that's probably going to help as well. I've also been renamed which I think was both practical and psychological--my real name is VERY distinctive, and the new one is simple and suits me. -Jane Edited 12 Aug 08, 2:24 PM by sweetjane Next page