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	TSR : Web boards : Internal Enslavement : "Empathy, Aspergers, and M/s" 1 2 Empathy, Aspergers, and M/s (11) This post is on the Internal Enslavement web board. Mon 12 May 08, 6:29 PM Yarakot 6 yrs Michael_X wrote: Since we are way off at a tangent anyway... http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/31400... Remember my comments about the Markram Intense World Theory of Aspergers and the question of why Aspies are not super empaths when one might argue, from that theory, that they should be? http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/paper/10.338... Incidentally, looking at Tania Singer's publication list the paper isn't there yet but I note another author is Frith, U. Now isn't that interesting. I suspect there is a paradigm shift coming. Perhaps this ties in with the subject of high systematisers (dominant or submissive), M/s and calmness. Regards, Michael. ) I do indeed remember Intense World hypothesis. How deeply cool that it has made it into Science News! What I am wondering is whether Aspergers' Sydrome actually has a variety of etiologies? The excess of empathy does seem to match my own pain mirror touch synesthesia and the way I close down completely around strong emotion, but I've known aspies who didn't seem this way at all. I suspect that Tanos is not suffering from an excess of empathy. Also does the high systemetizing always go with the lack of empathy? Are they, perhaps, two different qualities that are perhaps both linked more closely to male patterns and that is why they often come together. I read an articles that suggested that autism and Aspergers manifests differently in female children and male children (though I can't find the link), especially in the area of language. My recollection is that girls do not show the same difficulties with language that boys do and for this reason, they are less likely to be diagnosed as quickly. The same article suggested that Aspergers was more of a problem for girls than boys since girl-play includes a great deal more social and empathic content than boys. Finally, how does this come into M/s? I suspect that the need for controlled environments drives some of us aspies into M/s, whether we are driven towards submission (Joshua, me, etc.) or toward dominance (Tanos, Tangie's William, etc.) Does that sound right? Carolyn I'm so excited that you brought these things up here! I will be back to write more. And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. --Erica Jong * * * Interested in meeting me or other TSR people? Come to the TSR Meet & Greet at MsC in DC (August, 2008). 12 May 08, 7:42 PM the_Jedi_of_Gor US, 4 yrs Y! Yarakot wrote: Empathy, Aspergers, and M/s (snip Finally, how does this come into M/s? I suspect that the need for controlled environments drives some of us aspies into M/s, whether we are driven towards submission (Joshua, me, etc.) or toward dominance (Tanos, Tangie's William, etc.) Does that sound right? Carolyn I'm so excited that you brought these things up here! I will be back to write more. (snip) Just a little snip from diagnosis B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following: encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals I think this is the main reason why so many submissives with Asperger's are so drawn to the lifestyle. They thrive in an environment full of routines and rituals. They are comforted and pacified to be kept busy and have a sense of purpose. They know what is expected of them everyday and feel confident they can achieve these goals. Sorry for the poor spelling and brief posts. I am usually driving or working..or both Edited 12 May 08, 7:48 PM by the_Jedi_of_Gor 12 May 08, 8:57 PM Michael_X UK, 6 yrs Hi Carolyn, Given this is being discussed here I think people might find it useful to know that one can consider the brain to have (at least) two "empathy" systems, A fast one and a slow one. It's curious but the brain seems to do that a lot. Putting this very crudely. The fast, automatic, unconscious system deals with experiencing the emotions others experience and works via simulation using shared circuits. This is where mirror neurons come in. The other involves conscious cognition, the Theory of Mind system. http://www.bcn-nic.nl/txt/people/publications/20... The two of course work together but different situations can bias the predominance of one or other. Joshua's comment: "I did fall madly in love (eventually), but for weeks I thought I had the flu or something. I couldn't figure out why I felt so weird.", beautifully illustrates alexithymia, as mentioned in the article. I suspect one will find Aspie's with none or more of the above in various combinations. It is dangerous, I think, to view Aspergers as a single entity. I mention this because I suspect distinguishing between SC-empathy and ToM-empathy may be useful. Particularly as the word empathy is so overloaded with different meanings. Perhaps Tanos will comment on this since my impression from his writing is that his account fits with an SC (shared circuit) deficit but his online communications demonstrate an excellent ToM (theory of mind). Going beyond the evidence I'll speculate. It would be logical to argue that an SC deficit would lead to problems learning ToM. With time a person might catch up and learn ToM despite that and even become highly skilled when they choose. Okay, the above demonstrates a complete lack of empathy towards the bulk of people reading this. My apologies. In brief someone may have, one or more of the following, a problem automatically recognising and sharing the emotions of others (SC), a problem understanding how others think (ToM), or a problem identifying and understanding their own emotions (alexithymnia) and hence anyone's emotions. It may be that distinguishing between these will bring interesting things to light and avoid confusion. Regards, Michael 12 May 08, 8:59 PM shyfox 4 yrs Yarakot wrote: Empathy, Aspergers, and M/s Michael_X wrote: Since we are way off at a tangent anyway... http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/31400... Remember my comments about the Markram Intense World Theory of Aspergers and the question of why Aspies are not super empaths when one might argue, from that theory, that they should be? http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/paper/10.338... Incidentally, looking at Tania Singer's publication list the paper isn't there yet but I note another author is Frith, U. Now isn't that interesting. I suspect there is a paradigm shift coming. Perhaps this ties in with the subject of high systematisers (dominant or submissive), M/s and calmness. Regards, Michael. ) I do indeed remember Intense World hypothesis. How deeply cool that it has made it into Science News! What I am wondering is whether Aspergers' Sydrome actually has a variety of etiologies? The excess of empathy does seem to match my own pain mirror touch synesthesia and the way I close down completely around strong emotion, but I've known aspies who didn't seem this way at all. I suspect that Tanos is not suffering from an excess of empathy. Also does the high systemetizing always go with the lack of empathy? Are they, perhaps, two different qualities that are perhaps both linked more closely to male patterns and that is why they often come together. I read an articles that suggested that autism and Aspergers manifests differently in female children and male children (though I can't find the link), especially in the area of language. My recollection is that girls do not show the same difficulties with language that boys do and for this reason, they are less likely to be diagnosed as quickly. The same article suggested that Aspergers was more of a problem for girls than boys since girl-play includes a great deal more social and empathic content than boys. Finally, how does this come into M/s? I suspect that the need for controlled environments drives some of us aspies into M/s, whether we are driven towards submission (Joshua, me, etc.) or toward dominance (Tanos, Tangie's William, etc.) Does that sound right? Carolyn I'm so excited that you brought these things up here! I will be back to write more. I think that's interesting. I don't have aspergers but I am HSP, which causes a lot of my social awkwardness. I used to wonder about being aspie because some of the coping mechanisms for HSP people are similar, albeit milder, versions of aspie's. I'm surprised at all the people you listed. Has anyone crunched the numbers to see how many people in the bdsm community have this? 13 May 08, 12:18 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs Yarakot wrote: What I am wondering is whether Aspergers' Sydrome actually has a variety of etiologies? The excess of empathy does seem to match my own pain mirror touch synesthesia and the way I close down completely around strong emotion, but I've known aspies who didn't seem this way at all. I suspect that Tanos is not suffering from an excess of empathy. I know that for Joshua, the problem is not an excess of empathy so much as a low tolerance for stimulation. Being overrun by emotions that happen to be in response to a stimulus is not the same thing as empathy, even when the stimulus is someone else's feelings. The emotions stimulated may have no connection with or reflection of the other person's emotions; in fact it may be the same sensation as when a loud bell rings or a car horn honks. Yarakot wrote: Finally, how does this come into M/s? I suspect that the need for controlled environments drives some of us aspies into M/s, whether we are driven towards submission (Joshua, me, etc.) or toward dominance (Tanos, Tangie's William, etc.) Does that sound right? I've met Aspies who were dominant, who were submissive, and who were neither. I've met ones who were in the BDSM community solely because they liked sensation play - it drowned out other stimuli and chemically calmed them. So they seem to be all across the dom-to-sub spectrum. But the regulation of one's environment is definitely an issue - so much so that my life is not consistent *enough* for Joshua, poor boy. It took me a while to really understand that when he said, "Tell me what to wear," it wasn't just "I want to wear what pleases you," or "I want to be controlled, even down to my clothing," it was "I don't want to have to make decisions about what clothing is appropriate for what situation, because it's maddening for me. Just tell me what to wear, and I'll know I'm pleasing you, and the social subtleties of clothing will cease to matter." Really, that's one of the biggest things that being in service to me has done for his Aspergers - it's eliminated large swathes of the need for deciphering subtle social cues in order to make daily decisions. "It's what Raven wants me to do" is a comforting override for him. He always has someone to cross-check his behavior, and lay out specifics for him. He has a mental code to refer to, laid down by the most important person in his life. Going in reverse - situations where his Aspie stuff is actually a benefit to his position - he can concentrate for long periods on details without thinking, "Why the hell am I doing this boring bullshit again for the 50th day in a row?" He doesn't take things personally. He is less attached to strong identity markers than a NT person would be, and thus more easily adaptable. He is less attached to social mores and systems, so he adapts easily to mine. (As long as there's a coherent and consistent system, it doesn't much matter what it is for him.) When we're in public together, he has no problem with letting me have all the attention - he prefers it that way, because it's safer. While he likes to get affection and positive feedback from me, he is not very attached to the form that it comes in, so long as he has my word that it means what I say it means. If I were to say, "From now on, I will show you my approval and affection by sticking my finger in your ear," he might have a bit of trouble with the initial readjustment (because Aspies hate change of routine) but once it had sunk in, there wouldn't be any issues of whether it was the sort of action that "meant" approval for him. If I said it was approval, that would be good enough. Of course, there are a lot of drawbacks too, things that are difficult, but they're minor. (Serving during a loud noisy party, for example, will require occasional trips to hide in the pantry due to overstimulation. And then there's the time that he told my acupuncturist that her hair was round...) Just in terms of relationship issues in general, he's not very empathic at all, but frankly I prefer that, having dealt with a lot of overemotional, oversensitive, and easily offended people in my life. If I'm cranky in the morning and I snap at him, he automatically assumes that I'm not feeling well, not that I'm necessarily angry at him. That is such a relief to me. The cluelessness of Aspie people in general means that I have to watch myself a lot less, and can be more genuine, and less worried about walking on eggshells around their feelings. So I have a number of Aspie friends, and a few ex-lovers. (Of course, I have always had a thing for nerds, geeks, and dorks, so right there it follows...) -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 13 May 08, 1:12 AM De_Luxe UK, 4 yrs ravenkaldera wrote: Yarakot wrote: What I am wondering is whether Aspergers' Sydrome actually has a variety of etiologies? The excess of empathy does seem to match my own pain mirror touch synesthesia and the way I close down completely around strong emotion, but I've known aspies who didn't seem this way at all. I suspect that Tanos is not suffering from an excess of empathy. I know that for Joshua, the problem is not an excess of empathy so much as a low tolerance for stimulation. Being overrun by emotions that happen to be in response to a stimulus is not the same thing as empathy, even when the stimulus is someone else's feelings. The emotions stimulated may have no connection with or reflection of the other person's emotions; in fact it may be the same sensation as when a loud bell rings or a car horn honks. Yarakot wrote: Finally, how does this come into M/s? I suspect that the need for controlled environments drives some of us aspies into M/s, whether we are driven towards submission (Joshua, me, etc.) or toward dominance (Tanos, Tangie's William, etc.) Does that sound right? Snipped> It took me a while to really understand that when he said, "Tell me what to wear," it wasn't just "I want to wear what pleases you," or "I want to be controlled, even down to my clothing," it was "I don't want to have to make decisions about what clothing is appropriate for what situation, because it's maddening for me. Just tell me what to wear, and I'll know I'm pleasing you, and the social subtleties of clothing will cease to matter." Really, that's one of the biggest things that being in service to me has done for his Aspergers - it's eliminated large swathes of the need for deciphering subtle social cues in order to make daily decisions. "It's what Raven wants me to do" is a comforting override for him. He always has someone to cross-check his behavior, and lay out specifics for him. He has a mental code to refer to, laid down by the most important person in his life. Going in reverse - situations where his Aspie stuff is actually a benefit to his position - he can concentrate for long periods on details without thinking, "Why the hell am I doing this boring bullshit again for the 50th day in a row?" He doesn't take things personally. He is less attached to strong identity markers than a NT person would be, and thus more easily adaptable. He is less attached to social mores and systems, so he adapts easily to mine. (As long as there's a coherent and consistent system, it doesn't much matter what it is for him.) When we're in public together, he has no problem with letting me have all the attention - he prefers it that way, because it's safer. While he likes to get affection and positive feedback from me, he is not very attached to the form that it comes in, so long as he has my word that it means what I say it means. If I were to say, "From now on, I will show you my approval and affection by sticking my finger in your ear," he might have a bit of trouble with the initial readjustment (because Aspies hate change of routine) but once it had sunk in, there wouldn't be any issues of whether it was the sort of action that "meant" approval for him. If I said it was approval, that would be good enough. snip> Just in terms of relationship issues in general, he's not very empathic at all, but frankly I prefer that, having dealt with a lot of overemotional, oversensitive, and easily offended people in my life. If I'm cranky in the morning and I snap at him, he automatically assumes that I'm not feeling well, not that I'm necessarily angry at him. That is such a relief to me. The cluelessness of Aspie people in general means that I have to watch myself a lot less, and can be more genuine, and less worried about walking on eggshells around their feelings. So I have a number of Aspie friends, and a few ex-lovers. (Of course, I have always had a thing for nerds, geeks, and dorks, so right there it follows...) -Raven Kaldera That's very interesting. I am from a part of the Uk (north) where directness and 'honesty' is highly valued. It is appropriate there to say what you mean. In the south of England though to be direct and frank is sometimes considered blunt and rude. I find Life is easier without an excess of eggshells and oversensitive people. I found your post interesting because you have explained the mechanics of understanding and dealing with this. The practical is particularly useful to know about and rarely heard/seen. De 18 May 08, 2:03 AM postulant 4 yrs Yarakot wrote: <snip> Also does the high systemetizing always go with the lack of empathy? Are they, perhaps, two different qualities that are perhaps both linked more closely to male patterns and that is why they often come together. I read an articles that suggested that autism and Aspergers manifests differently in female children and male children (though I can't find the link), especially in the area of language. My recollection is that girls do not show the same difficulties with language that boys do and for this reason, they are less likely to be diagnosed as quickly. The same article suggested that Aspergers was more of a problem for girls than boys since girl-play includes a great deal more social and empathic content than boys. <snip> I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but when discussing systemizing and empathy in the context of Asperger/autism, there's the Extreme Male Brain (EMB) model to consider as well. To put it very simply, the theory is that systemizing is a male trait and empathizing is a female trait. Testing revealed that women test highest on empathy-related trials, men test lower than women, people with high functioning autism/Asperger test lowest. The reverse is true for systemizing with women scoring lowest and HFA/Aspergers testing highest. So Carolyn, following that model, yes, the two are linked to male brain behavior and that's why they're usually found together. Let me go see if I can find a reference for this for you. I know the guys last name is Baron-Cohen because I always think of the actor that played Borat! Okay, here you go! http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/... p. 8 Dec 08, 11:44 PM SixThreeFive SE, 5 yrs I don't have time to write my own thread, so I'm shamelessly bumping this one for Camille, as it's the one I came to think of. I'll be back on the topic as soon as I have time. 8 Dec 08, 11:54 PM EvaMaria US(CA), 3 yrs Thank you! I'm going to load it into my text reader and listen. (postprandial sloth - I cannot remain upright) Camille 25 May 10, 9:56 PM hiddenmaster666 US(WI), 2 yrs Y! I was diagonsed with both autism and aspergers at around age 13 and it has been intresting. i am one 4of those who is more dominat due to the disorders and i find that due to their affects on my min d i can focus utterlty on things and this is useful when it comes to traing slaves becasue i dont forget what they have doen wrong or right so make it so that i can judge how they are doing with their traing more easily. sorry b out the spellin g suffering from carpal tunal in hands right now HIDDENMASTER666 26 May 10, 3:56 AM 898-443-818 US, 5 yrs Thanks for bumping up an old post. Sometimes i really learn alot from the posts that have been around the longest. When i read this: when he said, "Tell me what to wear," it wasn't just "I want to wear what pleases you," or "I want to be controlled, even down to my clothing," it was "I don't want to have to make decisions about what clothing is appropriate for what situation, because it's maddening for me Boy did it strike home! i have no diagnosis, but i could not have said it better myself. Not only in regards to social situations, but also relationships. It's like whoever in put the "rules" we are supposed to have and know about relationships into our brains skipped me. With Master i never have to flounder about in the relationship waters wondering how to behave. Don't get me wrong, i love being controlled, but sometimes it feels like a need more than a kink-if left to my own devices the choices of the world are too much, even the "little" ones. 898-443-818 Next page