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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "Nervousness and Submission" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Nervousness and Submission (86) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 12 May 08, 5:33 PM Michael_X UK, 6 yrs ( Yarakot wrote: (Michael, can you shed some light on why both are considered "lack of empathy"?) Hi Carolyn, Only a guess. The human tendency to use words in imprecise, incorrect and confusing ways. That and different fields often have differing definitions for the same term. My impression is that when people talk about ASD and Aspergers they are talking primarily about theory of mind whilst with antisocial personality disorders they are talking about compassion, sympathy, understanding, shared emotions and the like. Since we are way off at a tangent anyway... http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/31400... Remember my comments about the Markram Intense World Theory of Aspergers and the question of why Aspies are not super empaths when one might argue, from that theory, that they should be? http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/paper/10.338... Incidentally, looking at Tania Singer's publication list the paper isn't there yet but I note another author is Frith, U. Now isn't that interesting. I suspect there is a paradigm shift coming. Perhaps this ties in with the subject of high systematisers (dominant or submissive), M/s and calmness. Regards, Michael. ) 12 May 08, 5:44 PM 139-715-032 US(MA), 6 yrs I'm a bit of an Aspie, and I'll just highlight some of the things tangie said as right on... tangie wrote: He's said things that were socially a disaster simply because his guard is down. I am not talking about being cranky. So he relies on me to help him through what are for him sometimes murky social waters. ... Anyway, the reason I mention this is because though he's said he's not sure what love is, and will probably never love me in the sense that most people mean, he understands deep caring. ... William may not have many social graces--he is not particularly "charming" or well spoken, and sometimes there just seems to be something, well, missing in him socially--but he has a kind and caring heart. These are all extremely typical of Aspies. When I am not "on my game" I will say socially disastrous things. Like tangie said, not because I am cranky, but because navigating social situations is difficult for me even on a good day. The most recent example was a few weeks ago when I commented to a woman that I noticed her new haircut. When she asked what I thought of it, I said, "It's very round." (It was a short, round bob.) Not an appropriate comment. Not having a clear grasp of the concept of "love" is also typical. I did fall madly in love (eventually), but for weeks I thought I had the flu or something. I couldn't figure out why I felt so weird. Aspies are not naturally charming, almost by definition. They can learn charming behavior and they may even get good at it, but we're usually the sort that people describe as "quirky". Aspies can have the sociopathy-like trait of not really fully grasping that other people are "people" in the same sense that they are a sentient being. Not grasping that other people have thoughts and feelings and desires. It is possible that they may not care about social interaction enough to develop an understanding of this. So they can coldly hurt people (and even be violent) but there is this sense of them not really understanding or caring that the person is hurt. It is not at all sadistic, just clueless. -- Joshua Raven's Boy, Joshua, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Raven Kaldera. You may contact Joshua directly with any questions or comments at josh@cauldronfarm.com, or contact Raven at cauldronfarm@hotmail.com. 12 May 08, 6:02 PM Yarakot 6 yrs anjuli wrote: Ah interesting and apologies because my thoughts were based on reading and theoretical knowledge rather than experience so I missed the shades of difference clearly. Me too. I was quite frustrated the first time I dealt with the differing meanings of the term “lack empathy”. Much thanks to Michael for responding on this. anjuli wrote: I have a question too for either you or Mike though. Is it right that the sociopath simply doesn't care? So this is chosen behaviour rather than an illness? I am confused because my understanding was that in psycho/socio-pathologies the inability to feel others' pain was a symptom of some phsyical or psychological damage or illness rather than a lack of care? First, I have to warn you that I am at the very edge of my knowledge in this so it would be better if there were someone more knowledgeable who could verify what I say or clarify where I'm wrong. The parts of the brain that create sociopaths are different than the areas of the brain that prevent Aspies from empathizing. Here is my understanding of the matter: Sociopaths lack the part of the brain responsible for the social emotions (guilt, shame, fear of disapproval, sympathy, fear of hurting someone else, etc.) that come into play when we harm someone else and that prevent us from doing it again. Their brain doesn't punish them for doing evil things to people, so they lack remorse for their actions. Because they lack remorse, it is probably accurate to say that they “choose” their behaviors. However, the quandary that presents is that if they choose these behaviors because they lack the brain structures that create our consciences, can we really say that they do this of their own free will? I will leave that exercise to you as I am quite tired of going around and around in my mind on the topic of determinism, biology, and free will. Aspies apparently lack mirror neurons (or have much less developed mirror neurons), which are one of the critical brain structures that allow people to understand how others feel. The way it works is this: You see someone crying. The mirror neurons in your brain imitate the emotion you would feel if you were crying. This allows you to understand that emotion because you basically feel what they are feeling. Aspies lack this ability. (Though apparently one can improve the number and activity of the mirror neurons one has and thus improve one's empathy to an extent.) Rather than instantly knowing how the person feels because they suddenly feel it (courtesy of their mirror neurons), they must analyze the face, the fact that there is water streaming down the cheeks, etc. before they can say, “Oh, she's sad. I should help.” Analysis is a much, much slower process in the brain and it is easily disrupted if the person is tired or distracted. In addition, peoples' faces are highly flexible and it is hard to note everything analytically. So aspies often can't tell what is going on. However, if you are able to get past that communication barrier, they will often be concerned for you. They do not lack the social emotions as sociopaths do. Michael has presented another theory on Asperger's that I find quite fascinating, which basically suggests that aspies are super-empaths who close down because of over-stimulation. (Perhaps we should take this whole thing to the theory area.) That's my best explanation. Does it make any sense at all? Carolyn And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. --Erica Jong * * * Interested in meeting me or other TSR people? Come to the TSR Meet & Greet at MsC in DC (August, 2008). 12 May 08, 6:32 PM Yarakot 6 yrs shyfox wrote: Although experts tend to disagree on this (what else is new) sociopaths tend to be less adept at fakin-err simulating normalcy. They tend to be more on the fringes of society and a surprisingly large number of them wear green shoes. Psychopaths are usually much better at deceiv-err integrating with the unwashed masses and they have nicer hair. Sociopath=The Hills have eyes. Psychopath=Silence of the Lambs. So, really, it would be impossible to give Jedi a proper diagnosis without delving into his gene pool and taking a close look at his choice of footwear. Thanks for this. All this time I just thought it was my fashion sense that kept me from people who wore green shoes. It's good to know that my subconscious is actually protecting me. Carolyn And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. --Erica Jong * * * Interested in meeting me or other TSR people? Come to the TSR Meet & Greet at MsC in DC (August, 2008). 12 May 08, 9:13 PM the_Jedi_of_Gor US, 4 yrs Y! just a snipit from a paper about Asperger's and crime http://www.iafmhs.org/files/Murrie.pdf In fact, their limited interpersonal acumen leaves them ill-equipped to manipulate the feelings or behaviors of others, and leaves them spending more time at the opposite end of the predator-prey spectrum from the psychopath. Is this why you are so offended by sociopaths/psychopaths Sorry for the poor spelling and brief posts. I am usually driving or working..or both 12 May 08, 9:27 PM shyfox 4 yrs the_Jedi_of_Gor wrote: just a snipit from a paper about Asperger's and crime http://www.iafmhs.org/files/Murrie.pdf In fact, their limited interpersonal acumen leaves them ill-equipped to manipulate the feelings or behaviors of others, and leaves them spending more time at the opposite end of the predator-prey spectrum from the psychopath. Is this why you are so offended by sociopaths/psychopaths Dude, enough with the sociopath talk. You are scaring the chitlins. *lol* People just associate the word with all kinds of horrible criminal element, and rightly so. It's like saying you are the friendly neighborhood serial killer who has never harmed a living soul. It's not so much what you do but what you could do. Sociopathy is not going to become acceptable. So the best thing you can do is keep it to yourself...like herpes and showtunes. 12 May 08, 11:05 PM the_Jedi_of_Gor US, 4 yrs Y! shyfox wrote: the_Jedi_of_Gor wrote: just a snipit from a paper about Asperger's and crime http://www.iafmhs.org/files/Murrie.pdf In fact, their limited interpersonal acumen leaves them ill-equipped to manipulate the feelings or behaviors of others, and leaves them spending more time at the opposite end of the predator-prey spectrum from the psychopath. Is this why you are so offended by sociopaths/psychopaths Dude, enough with the sociopath talk. You are scaring the chitlins. *lol* People just associate the word with all kinds of horrible criminal element, and rightly so. It's like saying you are the friendly neighborhood serial killer who has never harmed a living soul. It's not so much what you do but what you could do. Sociopathy is not going to become acceptable. So the best thing you can do is keep it to yourself...like herpes and showtunes. You win. I will hop back in the closet. But I'm not gone...just hiding. Sorry for the poor spelling and brief posts. I am usually driving or working..or both 12 May 08, 11:29 PM ravenkaldera US(MA), 6 yrs I think we are having a problem of language here. I wish we had more words. As I've said, these behaviors are on a continuum. We don't have language for the "mild" end of the continuum, people who may not be exactly normal, but who are no danger to others and are responsible members of society, so to speak. Mild versions of extreme problems are rarely studied anyway. Twenty years ago the word "autistic" called up the image (in doctors as well) of a nonresponsive, mute figure slamming their head into a wall. It's not that there aren't people on that end of the spectrum, but that image does no good for Aspies and high-functioning Auties who are just the guy next door who is a little weird, but a good guy. Similarly, we may need other terms for people on the mild end of the sociopathy spectrum. It makes me sad when someone comes out and says, "Yeah, I have this disability, but I'm aware of it, it isn't severe enough to mess up my life, I've got it under control, and here are my hard-won coping mechanisms," and people just give them shit. Certainly it's happened to me, talking about my various life issues. I think it's an honorable position to be in, to be struggling alone with your issues, and to be coping in spite of everything. It is true that the "sociopath" word is seen by most people as encompassing only the far-end criminal element of the spectrum, so it probably isn't a good word. I wish we had better language, though, to describe our dark sides and the way that we struggle with them, words that were less charged, at least enough so that people could hear them without freaking out. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 13 May 08, 12:11 AM submissiveheart US(NY), 6 yrs Thanks Raven and I agree. I didn't see Jake as trying to provoke people. I think he's made efforts to be extremely helpful to people on this board. I just don't think he explained himself as well as you did, but then again, you are a writer. I also think that sociopathy is very misunderstood and demonized by those in the profession (ever read "The Sociopath Next Door"?). Narcissism has an apparent continuum too, from extreme and dangerous, to mild (but hurtful to others because of a lack of awareness of others feelings). I've noticed that psychology can be very labeling and damaging. I'm intensly interested in it yet at times avoid it (ironic considering I have a MS in Social Psychology). As someone who has worked in the sex work industry (as a dancer), I'm well aware of the labeling that goes on and it does a discredit to those that can navigate that work and maybe enjoy it. I also am aware of similarities in D/s and M/s in regards to psychology. The way psychological language describes health flies in the face on how enslavement relationships can work (when not on-going voluntary submission). Anyway, as for all this personality-disorder talk, as vicious as my dad could be, I know he suffered GREATLY for his, err, condition. Far, far more than the suffering he caused his family. As for my former Sir, we had a bad breakup and the relationship greatly impacted his career and unfortunatly it doesn't look like we'll be able to be active friends and that impacts my abandonment issues. Whether ex-Sir is whatever is probably not important as much as the relationship got out of hand because he stopped being able to control it. And part of how he dealt with that was enjoying others as a form of escape. My mind can make up scenerios about this (and him), but the real deal is that I'm hurting and need to find a way to move on. Guess that is my next journey (but would like it to be a fun one...). This discussion has been very very interesting. Edited 13 May 08, 12:14 AM by submissiveheart 13 May 08, 12:39 AM submissiveheart US(NY), 6 yrs anjuli wrote: Hi submissiveheart Just wanted to say I am glad you managed to get something out of this one. It's made interesting reading despite the difficulties. I wanted to just add one small thought about your research that may or may not help. There are other things that cause the kind of behaviour you mention - rather less emotive and threatening than the psycho- socio- pathologies discussed. I'm thinking of autism and particularly the very high-functioning end of the spectrum such as aspergers syndrome. Now I'm not suggesting that that's an answer in itself as there would have been other signs in his development and life but even at its mildest it can affect the ability to empathise with others and therefore behave appropriately in personal relationships / lead to controlling coping mechanisms. I am pretty sure my ex was borderline which led to his inability to deal with emotion and express feelings or respond appropriately to hugs and made him seem standoffish and arrogant at times. Just a thought that meandered thro my mind as I was reading and thinking how dramatic it all seemed. This is much more common and less scary I suppose is my point. anjuli Thanks and yes it is possible. He is a different sort but I do remember him as caring too. He does have a hard time with intense emotions in others (and saying inappropriate things). I don't think he intended to hurt me like he did so you have a point. At any rate, it is probably irrelevant to my healing to delve into. BTW, thanks everyone for the well wishes. Edited 13 May 08, 12:40 AM by submissiveheart Next page