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	TSR : Web boards : M/s D/s O&P : "The Meaning of 24/7" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 The Meaning of 24/7 (81) This post is on the M/s D/s O&P web board. 28 Feb 08, 9:07 AM Michael_X UK, 6 yrs masterfiremaam wrote: I certainly understand how this, under normal circumstances, would be true. However, my girl and her husband do not have a classic marriage. They are not sexual partners...they are more friends/roommates who have a legal agreement. They DO love each other and so they stay married even as they both have outside relationships, even love relationships. It's how they've chosen to live their lives and have done so for almost 30 years. I have no problem understanding this as we knew a friend in a not dissimilar marriage and she had a Master in a D/s relationship for a year who was not live in. It ended when he moved with his job and she declined to move with him. That clarifies things a lot. masterfiremaam wrote: I'm hoping I can find a way to say the next thing without sounding totally pompus...her husband does have a say in how I govern anne because I choose it to be that way. No, not pompous and again I have no difficulty understanding that. masterfiremaam wrote: So, a slave who has a savings account with enough money to move out if a Master abuses him can't ever be a 24/7 slave? I don't agree. You are of course right. That would apply even more so in the UK where a slave with absolutely nothing could move out and the state and various charities would support him/her sufficiently until she sorted out being independent. I think safety nets are a gray issue. Some people's safety nets are such that they can use them for day to day support others are only there at a level which will mitigate a fatal fall into a nasty accident. In terms of enslavement I believe they have a significant bearing on things however in terms of, is it or isn't it 24/7, are they relevant to how we define it? Financial safety nets are probably not. I'm not so sure about close relationship safety nets. masterfiremaam wrote: Their marriage is significantly different from the norm. Thank you for providing more details. I felt a bit wary about my initial questions and comments but the post you made did raise interesting questions that I wanted to ask, so I did. I guess the issue that has emerged here for me, in defining 24/7, is, how do we integrate ployamorous relationships into it? It's probably is a lot easier to define 24/7 given a dyad and of course as a monogamist I have that perspective and also, presumably, for a M with multiple s's. So, a question for poly folk, given a poly slave whose owner is his/her primary might the existence of another primary effect whether the relationship is 24/7? If so, when and how? Regards, Michael 28 Feb 08, 9:38 AM symphony 5 yrs i still think we are talking about definitions. i say 24/7, you say M/s. Our own personal M/s, 24/7, slave/Master, slave/Owner relationships are defined within each individual circumstance and are tailored to suit those circumstances. My Owner could and would use me in public if the opportunity presented itself in a correct manner. And He has done. My Owner could and would control me by text if necessary. We happen to live together but He could control me simply by giving me a directive and sending me away for 6 months. i would still be in His service. When He is away working, i know what is expected of me and i obey, 24 hours a day, not in His presence and He trusts that i am doing so. my point (and this will be the last time i reiterate it)is that we far too often separate ourselves into categories within slavery by ascribing definitions to ourselves which we feel make us different than others, then offense commences. i understand that W.A.S. are different in their practices than what i do. i also believe there is a difference between D/s and M/s. i also believe that there is a difference between submissives and slaves, however there are many days when i feel i am merely being submissive in nature rather than serving as a slave so that is where i stop drawing lines in the sand. i cannot say no to a direct command. Some submissives may do that by shouting a safe word or by walking away. i also have safe words for play and can stop play at will. Am i then classed as a submissive despite the fact that i serve in His home 24/7 as a slave? Do you see what i mean? Definitions cannot define what we are and what we do. Our relationships are as personal as fingerprints. We all have fingerprints, but not the same ones. i am a slave, not a good one, but my heart is slavelike. You can be whatever you want to be and i will respect that. You can tell me you are a slave and not only will i try to believe in you, i will definitely respect your right to call yourself one. slave tsina 28 Feb 08, 10:05 AM anjuli UK, 4 yrs slave_tsina wrote: i still think we are talking about definitions. i say 24/7, you say M/s. <snip> Definitions cannot define what we are and what we do. Our relationships are as personal as fingerprints. We all have fingerprints, but not the same ones. <snip> Absolutely. I think that's precisely the point of the thread that Carolyn started here. It is about trying to find a generally accepted definition of the words 24/7 so that we can use it and know what it encompasses. As tsina quite rightly says, we're all different, our relationships are all different. But we have accepted and clear definitions of other words such as slave here on TSR (altho not everyone uses them all the time) and I think what we're trying to do here is find agreement for 24/7 too? I am confident it's not about excluding some or taking away a phrase someone likes - but it's clear that having such a wide range within one tiny word is causing exactly that to happen in other discussions. We are ending up in 'you're not 24/7' territory all the time. If we can agree, this won't have to happen any more and we can get on with substantive discussion and point people at the wiki. That's why I suggested we need other words to describe those who fall off the definition at either end (if you'll excuse the phrase). Tsina raises another interesting one. Safewords? Are they part of the issue here? I think not in relation to 24/7 because as I've said I see this as a descriptor for D/s or M/s. So you can have 24/7 D/s or WAS D/s for instance. But it is part of M/s to me. anjuli Edited to correct OP ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 28 Feb 08, 2:59 PM by anjuli 28 Feb 08, 12:12 PM Tanos UK, 14 yrs Y! Yarakot wrote: How do you define 24/7 M/s? I must admit, when I say "24/7" I really mean co-resident. ie living together, and not having separate lives which only cross over for "quality time" or at weekends for instance. If 24/7 just means all the time, then it's redundant, since all relationships are 24/7 since you're always in the relationship while it lasts. (You might not be "doing" the relationship all the time, but you're still "in" it even if it's a casual relationship.) Regards, Tanos M/s and in the UK? 28 Feb 08, 1:12 PM symphony 5 yrs i would be very very surprised to see such a diverse group of people make a universal decision on a word definition to describe what we "are" or "do". Would this just be in TSR land or are we defining 24/7 slavery for global usage? Personally, i just don't like labels put on me by anyone but myself or perhaps my Owner. Does me using the term Owner mean that i am not M/s but O/s, which would be different from all the people in an M/s relationship? If we all just keep communicating about the actual issues without trying to define the humans involved, we might be more productive. Passing on our experiences and opinions to one another does not require us to be slave, Master or whatever. Just human. Good luck with what you are trying to achieve, but i don't see what is wrong with debating a subject repeatedly as new people join TSR all the time and may like a real time debate. They may want to ask questions which isn't as easy to do researching old threads. slave tsina 28 Feb 08, 3:09 PM godless US(TX), 5 yrs Y! slave_tsina wrote: Would this just be in TSR land or are we defining 24/7 slavery for global usage? <snip> Good luck with what you are trying to achieve, but i don't see what is wrong with debating a subject repeatedly as new people join TSR all the time and may like a real time debate. They may want to ask questions which isn't as easy to do researching old threads. slave tsina We are just defining 24/7 for TSR land. I don't think that any of us are arrogant enough to try to impose a definition that we are going to spread to the world. We also aren't arrogant enough to say "we defined 24/7 as this, this, and this, and if you don't fit this definition *you aren't even allowed to use 24/7 to describe yourself in your own home.*" That would be silly. We've had many conversations about "words" and "language" and "communication" and how "if we all mean the same thing when we use the same words" much confusion and "bad advice" can be avoided. - IE, when someone comes on and says "I'm a TPE 24/7 slave, and my M did something that I really don't want him to do, and I want make his stop. How do I do that?" they often get advice similar to "well, if it's only a *want* and you are a *slave* and it's *TPE* you really don't have many options. There is no "forcing him" in this instance." Then we find out that they've simply conversed online for a number of months, don't have any plans to leave their respective spouses, and they think that *we* are all in horribly abusive relationships because "no one can really live in slavery *all the time*" The advice then usually takes a change in tone to address the person's situation. However, if they had used terms that accurately reflect what she's living in terms that TSR has used and agrees on then all of the confusion is avoided. Similarly, we are trying to find more terms that we can agree on so that we can give advice that is relevent and useful to those people who ask questions. It's not a way of making anyone feel *bad* if they don't fit the definition. I think a large part of the reason we try to do this, is that TSR is rather set up as the Anne Landers of M/s. People are often asking for advice, and others are trying to give it, as best they can with the information that is given. Because of this exchange between posters, a clear means of communication is necessary for the board to function efficiently. Lastly, for the second half of the above quote I snipped, I think that we are trying to avoid later debate by making a definition of 24/7 that we can put in the TSR wiki. Then if someone uses 24/7 in a manner that is inconsistent, we can direct then to the wiki, and politely say "we (posters) define 24/7 the same as wiki does. You may get more relevent and helpful advice if you use 24/7 when you are referring to what we mean, and use another term or explanation if you mean something different." "You don't love a girl because she's beautiful. You love a girl because she sings a song that only you can understand" - L.J Smith "Dark World" 28 Feb 08, 5:00 PM symphony 5 yrs It is good to see that there are people dedicating their time to making sure these boards operate efficiently. slave tsina (going back to her ironing before she gets caught investing far too much time online and ignoring her r/t duties) edited due to typo Edited 28 Feb 08, 5:25 PM by symphony 29 Feb 08, 1:38 PM deb0rah UK, 10 yrs I have left and left replying to this thread to see if I could actually answer the question myself and I cant really! I can have an opinion on what I feel it is or should be, but is that then an aspiration or a shortfall of that to something I feel I can achieve so I fall in the category I wish to as such. Aspiration is an interesting concept and while we all say no, no, it is something lots of property may "suffer" from. We often hear names bandied on here as if they are gods gift to slavery, yet I can almost guarantee that they aren't as they struggle, or they aren't yet and may well do so one day etc! It also depends on which "god" you are trying to please!It is an artificial virtual world we are in and that affects perception. Lots of us try and state what we see as right or wrong, so I agree on the need for definition, I feel the issue however is a situation where you end up creating a camp of in and out. People naturally resent that situation and often aspire to what they see as the in camp or the elite. People will often then avoid the definition itself to make sure it doesn't de classify them as something they thought they were. They can also resent with good reason those they see as the clique or the in as in its simplest nature it creates exclusion. Simplicity has to be our friend here. In it's most basic premise, 24/7 means just that all the time, no let up, every second of every minute of every day and I feel if you took that to its enth degree we would all fail it's definition. That one minute where you thought, nope cant or a negative feeling has in effect removed you from that definition. Then it comes down to the closest to that I guess. Its ok to have time out and feel odd, but the enslavement is there 24/7, no matter what other issues you face. Within that are many arguments, those that live in with kids, without kids, with a job, without a job, are naked, are chained, those that live apart and if so defining for how long is ok or not etc. It becomes a mine field of possibility so whatever is decided I still think simplicity is the key. When you are called to question by those future TSR'ers can you argue the point objectively and simply versus lots of subjective debate that leaves you open to question It is a bit like trying to find a mission statement for TSR, one that its members agree on, but even that is so very hard to do; to define all we believe in in one simple statement that represents us all. Nigh on impossible as someone somewhere will be upset and disagree. I feel in the end it will come down to two camps regardless of all the little bits within that; Those that live together and those that don't as it seems to be the most clinically acceptable. We can argue enslavement until we are blue in the face but the simple fact that it is subjective and not objective almost makes it harder to quantify. The basic, unarguable point of do you live together within Ms or dont you, may be the most objective basic concept. It is one I probably wouldn't agree with totally, but again maybe I would like a special elite group just for me and anyone who wants to be friendly, yay! The truth of the matter is though, whatever it is, it has to relay a simple message of "this is what it means here" and if there are too many sub categories within that, you may as well write a manual that pleases the whole world ... an impossible task! Still unsure anyway! debs xx "Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man." John Knox 29 Feb 08, 4:43 PM kittentakara 6 yrs I think bob Dylan said it best "You've got to serve someone" so how do we all see the term 24/7 1. its term means you 24/7 submissive and constanly at your Owners beck and call 24/7 and never do anything but wait for orders 365 days a year. 2. it means 24/7 means your in relationship with there power dynamic that is always on, meaning your it never if switched off you can do other things but when your owner gives you a order you jump too. 3. 24/7 means living toghter in M/s relationship i think as much as BA has some intresting points, but think BA term of 24/7 is unworkable, as it would basicly rule out everyone. if the Owner goes to work, the he may have to work late or do something that means he is unreachable or go away for the weekend on training course. or what happens if there problem with phones and email and they all go down, is not being able to being in contract with your slave for the day then mean its not 24/7. what about if Owner gets ill and taken into hospital and it not able to leave for 2-3 weeks. does that mean 24/7 is not happening. if a slave works. is it not the point the Owner has the choice to Veto the chooce of the slave working at any point. also what happen if the slave works from home or the slave does something based in BDSM world as job. say as working a Pro Sub. were the slave could be at the Master beck and call anyways. i just don't see that fact that slave works mean you cannot call it 24/7 or what about if they have children. can't it be the that child is extention of the slave. as the Master still has control and make major desctions on slaves life and also how they bring up the child. i think Raven made a great point on this. i think in truth 24/7 is what we choice it too be. all three can be true but, but at the end of day "we've got serve someone" if that be we need money to have this lifestyle or "insert god of choice" that illness or other things in life will come in the way of a pure 100% unfilter 24/7. when in truth i doubt a single perosn could claim that they life a life where 24/7 means that the Master is always there to give instrutions and is never away from the slave. or out of contact from the slave ever. its just not possible. takara x 29 Feb 08, 5:59 PM Master_E_Robert US(WA), 5 yrs I think this thread could serve as a yardstick for Tanos to use (should he so choose) in determining an official TSR definition for 24/7. Many people (including myself) might twinge a little at the idea of one person having that kind of power over a very disparate community built on the contributions and work of the many, but ultimately he is responsible for the creation and continuation of this site. As such, I would be willing to use an official TSR definition at least when posting on TSR as long as I felt it was informed by this (and possibly other) threads. While I personally tend to identify with the idea that 24/7 refers to the concept that there is no lapse in the control structure of a relationship, I wonder if it is necessary to clarify that point in regard to M/s? In other words, can't M/s be seen as a subset of D/s which implicitly involves 24/7 control? By this thinking, D/s involves power exchange that may be turned on or off and has limits. M/s implies 24/7 D/s (power exchange) without limits. The wiki currently says that M/s is D/s without limits. Perhaps it should be updated to say D/s without limits on a continual basis (24/7 control, not 24/7 service). This would leave the term "24/7" available for other use since M/s would include continual control in its definition. I don't really see the need to use 24/7 to describe living arrangements as they can be so complex and are probably best described with words (live together, live in the same city, online only, separate households 50% of the year, etc., etc.). One option of course would be to use 24/7 to describe M/s relationships in which "near-continual" service is available. I put that in quotes because obviously when the Master is apart from the slave (for work or other reasons), it can't immediately physically service him. However, this definition would imply that the slave is kept in a state wherein it is practical to call upon such service at any moment. In other words, pretty much the situation BA described. I think this sort of definition would not imply that "regular" M/s is of any lower status. Rather it is a distinction on how a Master uses his property. Sending your slave off to work implies that it isn't available all the time. Having your slave care for children also implies that it isn't available at any time since requiring service in such a manner could border on child abuse. Having your slave care for your house, belongings, and animals could fit the 24/7 definition. Reading through this thread, I thought I disagreed with BA's take on things, but in the end I see a consistent logic to it. 24/7 M/s meaning "continual control" has come to sound redundant to me. 24/7 M/s meaning "continual availability of service" in a practical way makes a lot of sense. Next page